2024 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

[Xyz22]

How many races they are going to take to optimize upgrades and understand the car ? They have been saying it for the past 3 races now. They better not give that reason for Austria and Silverstone. What is the point of upgrade if you can’t use it effectively ?

The upgrades are working, the issue is that they didn't significantly improve quali performance.

[Vanja #66]

The upgrades are working, the issue is that they didn't significantly improve quali performance.

How can we know that?

[Sergej]

I remember that it was said that second package was aimed to address the problems of the car like qualy, but now they are saying that was not the case, aim was only to "add performance", where is the truth ?

[Xyz22]

I remember that it was said that second package was aimed to address the problems of the car like qualy, but now they are saying that was not the case, aim was only to "add performance", where is the truth ?

No, the package was aimed to increase downforce and overall efficiency. For now, it doesn't seem the situation improved that much over one lap.

The upgrades are working, the issue is that they didn't significantly improve quali performance.

How can we know that?

Leclerc and Sainz still complained about the lack of grip in quali run, which has been the issue since Bahrain. They can't seem to extract the peak performance of the tyres. Formu1a.uno reported the same in their streaming yesterday.

[Vanja #66]

Leclerc and Sainz still complained about the lack of grip in quali run, which has been the issue since Bahrain. They can't seem to extract the peak performance of the tyres. Formu1a.uno reported the same in their streaming yesterday.

But they had imperfect setup and apparently the car was higher in Q than FP3 which would explain the performance drop. Losing downforce automatically means less heat in the tyres while cornering as a consequence. I don't think we can say anything conclusive about upgrades with the compromise they made in Barcelona. formu1a.uno also reports upgrades brought more performance than expected, doesn't sound like a failed package

Binotto would say "we need to understand the car"

[Xyz22]

Leclerc and Sainz still complained about the lack of grip in quali run, which has been the issue since Bahrain. They can't seem to extract the peak performance of the tyres. Formu1a.uno reported the same in their streaming yesterday.

But they had imperfect setup and apparently the car was higher in Q than FP3 which would explain the performance drop. Losing downforce automatically means less heat in the tyres while cornering as a consequence. I don't think we can say anything conclusive about upgrades with the compromise they made in Barcelona. formu1a.uno also reports upgrades brought more performance than expected, doesn't sound like a failed package

Binotto would say "we need to understand the car"

I never said it was a failure, i think.
I'm also expecting the Team to get even more performance out of it in the upcoming races. At the same time i think is going to be quite difficult to fix the issues they have in qualifying this year. Usually these characteristics are fixed with significant modifications to the chassis, which apparently is what Ferrari will do for 2025. Do you think they are going to change the front suspension's layout?

[Sergej]

I remember that it was said that second package was aimed to address the problems of the car like qualy, but now they are saying that was not the case, aim was only to "add performance", where is the truth ?

No, the package was aimed to increase downforce and overall efficiency. For now, it doesn't seem the situation improved that much over one lap.

initially they said a little bit different thing, unless my translation is completely wrong:

The new prices that will be introduced in Great Britain are aimed at taking the red car a further step by widening the operating window, making the car more competitive in different layout and temperature conditions.

https://formu1a.uno/it/ferrari-nessuna- ... sf-24-2-1/

again

The plans at Maranello were to introduce the second major package at Silverstone, with the aim of increasing the overall load but also providing a better aerodynamic compromise in the direction of reducing certain problems of the red.

https://formu1a.uno/it/esclusiva-ferrar ... in-spagna/

so not only simply adding downforce/efficiency but addressing specific problems; I can understand that the two things can be correlated but I believe the narrative about this upgrades changed a bit during these weeks (which can be entirely legit, either because Ferrari's plans changed or because they got not perfect info at the beginning)

[Vanja #66]

I never said it was a failure, i think.
I'm also expecting the Team to get even more performance out of it in the upcoming races. At the same time i think is going to be quite difficult to fix the issues they have in qualifying this year. Usually these characteristics are fixed with significant modifications to the chassis, which apparently is what Ferrari will do for 2025. Do you think they are going to change the front suspension's layout?

Sorry, I know you didn't say it, but it's often implied here...

We'll have to see and the team will have to see where they are actually with this update package with optimised setup. I was the first to point the finger to cold weather after Q, but the car being too high is much worse for Q performance. The first sign that ambient and track temperatures weren't hindering the car so much was in stints 2 and 3 in the race, which was colder than Q. I was very surprised how good Leclerc's pace was during the race and checking the data after the race confirmed it

New chassis is expected for next year, you can always find performance with lighter tub, but stiffer at the same time. I'm sure there are tiny things they can do with suspension geometry to improve tyre window further. On top of that, switching to front pull rod will be a good thing, especially to get reacquainted with mechanics of it ahead of 2026. Front pull rod generates tiny outwash if fairing profiles are angled up to generate downwash (and they usually are) and push rod generates tiny inwash, so from aero point of view this can be a good thing. These cars have outwashing floor fences and 2026 cars will have inwashing fences, it's gonna be a hell of an effort to overcome that and clean up the flow under the floor and every little bit will help

[MattLightBlue]

Does anyone have an idea of why vortex generators on the edge of Ferrari floor are very minimalistic and simple compared to all other cars?
It seems to me, it would be an easy way to improve performance if it was not like that on purpose.

[Space-heat]

I haven't been following, but what is the consensus on the flexing front wings that RBR is complaining about? Merc was first, and then I think I read Marko complaining about McL and Ferrari.

I know the FIA has cleared Mcl and Merc. Is the Ferrari wing flexing noticeably in comparison, or has anyone looked? Part of me hopes (irrationally) that the remaining 20% of the Spain upgrade is a flexing front wing that could give two-tenths, similar to the Merc at Monaco (although their improvement could be purely by removing that "vortex-generating" upper element). We saw last year how Aston plummeted from Spain (I think) when they were rumoured to have had to change their flexing wing. Completely without any knowledge or reading, but could this flexing front wing be the reason MCL fixed their slow speed so much? or is this all overblown by RBR and not really a thing?

[organic]

I haven't been following, but what is the consensus on the flexing front wings that RBR is complaining about? Merc was first, and then I think I read Marko complaining about McL and Ferrari.

I know the FIA has cleared Mcl and Merc. Is the Ferrari wing flexing noticeably in comparison, or has anyone looked? Part of me hopes (irrationally) that the remaining 20% of the Spain upgrade is a flexing front wing that could give two-tenths, similar to the Merc at Monaco (although their improvement could be purely by removing that "vortex-generating" upper element). We saw last year how Aston plummeted from Spain (I think) when they were rumoured to have had to change their flexing wing. Completely without any knowledge or reading, but could this flexing front wing be the reason MCL fixed their slow speed so much? or is this all overblown by RBR and not really a thing?

Unclear and opinions vary. However if and when RB/Ferrari bring a flexible front wing at some point and they massively step forward / solve inherent issues then it says a lot

[Space-heat]

I haven't been following, but what is the consensus on the flexing front wings that RBR is complaining about? Merc was first, and then I think I read Marko complaining about McL and Ferrari.

I know the FIA has cleared Mcl and Merc. Is the Ferrari wing flexing noticeably in comparison, or has anyone looked? Part of me hopes (irrationally) that the remaining 20% of the Spain upgrade is a flexing front wing that could give two-tenths, similar to the Merc at Monaco (although their improvement could be purely by removing that "vortex-generating" upper element). We saw last year how Aston plummeted from Spain (I think) when they were rumoured to have had to change their flexing wing. Completely without any knowledge or reading, but could this flexing front wing be the reason MCL fixed their slow speed so much? or is this all overblown by RBR and not really a thing?

Unclear and opinions vary. However if and when RB/Ferrari bring a flexible front wing at some point and they massively step forward / solve inherent issues then it says a lot

Yes, that is fair, thanks for the information. Copium levels will stay high until we see some sort of FW upgrade. In the latest FormulaUNO article (https://formu1a.uno/it/ferrari-gli-svil ... -problema/) they discuss that the two upgrades were focused on improving the slow speed, if Ferrari thought a flex FW would solve this then they probably would not be trying to achieve this with the floor (again baseless guessing).

Interestingly, in the same article, they mention that the two packages were expected to give 5-tenths (lower than 0.4s imola and 0.2s Barcelona in the media at the time), and they have only seen a 0.35s performance gain. Hopefully, they can claw some back with set-up. It might be that traditional smooth tracks don't work, but Ferrari can excel on other tracks where the topography necessitates everyone to raise their car slightly.

[yooogurt]

Many have talked about bouncing present at certain running speeds, calling it the main cause of the unexpected performance. As far as we are concerned, we have more by observing every single lap of the weekend via onboards. For Ferrari, in fact, a slight aerodynamic bouncing was present only in T3, turn 14, certainly not greater than that of Mercedes, which, in this very part of the track, especially in qualifying, made a big difference over the rest of the competitors.

As for turns 3 and 9, high-speed leaning corners, porpoising was completely absent: for this reason we prefer to speak of instability at the rear, derived from imperfect loading due to imprecise tuning by drivers and technicians. An aspect that took away the confidence of the two Ferraris in the fast corners and lowered the running speeds in certain sections of the Catalan circuit. This element was clearly noticeable by expertly examining handling and behavior of the Italian cars.
https://www.funoanalisitecnica.com/2024 ... blemi.html

[Seanspeed]

Now that it is established sf-24 is extremely conservative with tires. Why doesn't team go on full quali setup and see how they perform in race ? Worst cast they will ace qualy and fall behind sunday.

It's not extremely conservative on its tires compared to the current competition, though. And part of the improvement in tire life we've seen since last year is not just the car, but also simply Leclerc in particularly learning how to get more out of them in terms of how he drives them over a stint.

There's really not any great scope to adjust to a more qualifying-biased setup without compromising the more critical race. If there was, Ferrari would be doing it. They're not dumb.

And worst case is falling backwards to lower than where they'd otherwise finish. Race pace is still king. And poor tire life can completely hobble your strategy options which can hurt results even more. There's a reason we've done a lot better on strategy since sorting the tires out. They go hand in hand.

Ferrari have done quite well to maximize results this season overall. Our only issue right now is simply that the car isn't fast enough.

[Space-heat]

Now that it is established sf-24 is extremely conservative with tires. Why doesn't team go on full quali setup and see how they perform in race ? Worst cast they will ace qualy and fall behind sunday.

It's not extremely conservative on its tires compared to the current competition, though. And part of the improvement in tire life we've seen since last year is not just the car, but also simply Leclerc in particularly learning how to get more out of them in terms of how he drives them over a stint.

There's really not any great scope to adjust to a more qualifying-biased setup without compromising the more critical race. If there was, Ferrari would be doing it. They're not dumb.

And worst case is falling backwards to lower than where they'd otherwise finish. Race pace is still king. And poor tire life can completely hobble your strategy options which can hurt results even more. There's a reason we've done a lot better on strategy since sorting the tires out. They go hand in hand.

Ferrari have done quite well to maximize results this season overall. Our only issue right now is simply that the car isn't fast enough.

To add, in the article linked two posts up (https://www.funoanalisitecnica.com/2024 ... blemi.html)

"Finally, a few words about tyres. Ferrari was unable to use them properly in the tenth round of the 2024 F1 world championship , especially in qualifying. Spanish track which, due to its particular conformation, put the two SF-24s in difficulty , unable to exploit the correct level of grip in the three sectors during the course of the session. Frederic Vasseur himself confirmed this , even if he preferred not to go into details in this case. The argument in this case is simple: the deck was short because sacrificing one section of the track to favor another automatically meant losing performance ." - google translated but the idea is there.

If the tyres could not last a lap, they were probably set for quali. Just the car set-up limits couldn't keep the tyres in the right window for the whole lap. Compared to Mcl and RBR, ferrari was running less DF (higher top speed), so a similar DF level for Ferrari could have improved tyre temp over a single lap if rear sliding was what was causing the tyre overheating.