2024 F1 season - General Discussion

[AR3-GP]

The longer that I look at the drawing of Scarbs, the more I don't see how the mechanism that he proposes achieves any differential pressure. Something profound is missing from his diagrams. The hydrostatic pressure is equal in all chambers regardless of how small or large the opening is, as long as it is still open to both sides. Contrary to what people may think, brake fluid doesn’t “flow” anywhere. Compared to a road car, the brake fluid in a racing car is pretty much stationary and the only thing that changes is the hydrostatic pressure which is uniform in the brake circuit. This allows the force on the pedal instantly pressurize the entire brake system which is exactly what drivers want. Instant brake application and feedback.

The valve will only close itself based on steering input (and then stay closed until pressure in the inner wheel circuit drops back down below the pressure of the outer wheel circuit when it closed. I don’t think that kind of system could be used in a repeatable way. You are line locking the outside wheel at an arbitrary pressure that depends on the amount of pressure that was applied before the driver steered into the corner. If he then lets off of the brake, both sides are open again and there is no differential. There would have to be some very precise and repetitive braking and steering patterns to use something as described above.

The way I think the system that he draws would actually work is for a driver to complete most of the braking in a straight line when the valve is open to both left and right rear calipers. Then the electronics would move the brake balance rearwards automatically as the driver releases the pedal (brake migration is allowed) at which point the driver has started to turn in and one of the valves needs to be closed. Either the inside rear brake is dragged passively, or it is done with the pedal input from the driver. The correct side that needs to be closed depends on how such a system would be implemented.

This is assuming what Scarbs has drawn is the actual implementation of an F1 team.



It’s worth remembering that Scarbs is a journalist turned technical analyst so I’m not surprised that he drew something that doesn’t make sense in engineering terms. He has done it before.

[Vanja #66]

The valve ban will only appear in Zandvoort, but RB problems supposedly started in Miami because of it.
HUH?

It got clarified in the regulations in the latest iteration. I would assume that is because there was a grey area.

The conceptual idea is not allowed soon after it was introduced in 90s, like moveable aero or ducted fan. The details of execution are not the main thing, those get silent banned instantly and paperwork is resolves later. Same like front wing flexing that hurt AMR23.

[chrisc90]

I’d dare say the braking forces inside a brake pipe/system will EASILY overcome that of a small mass inside a block.

[yooogurt]

The conceptual idea is not allowed soon after it was introduced in 90s, like moveable aero or ducted fan. The details of execution are not the main thing, those get silent banned instantly and paperwork is resolves later. Same like front wing flexing that hurt AMR23.

Aston's wings were banned a little differently, within the regulations, and here they are changing it, although the part itself was banned much earlier. However, there is an option that RB were able to prove/convince the FIA that everything was within the regulations and therefore there were corrections.

[Vanja #66]

Aston's wings were banned a little differently, within the regulations, and here they are changing it, although the part itself was banned much earlier. However, there is an option that RB were able to prove/convince the FIA that everything was within the regulations and therefore there were corrections.

There was a gray zone on the execution, but not on the idea itself. Execution was silent banned first and the loophole is now closed. It's a very common approach. There are many other details that suggest this was indeed the case, remember Domenicalli saying out of the blue something like RB won't dominate this season sometime after China race

[FW17]

The longer that I look at the drawing of Scarbs, the more I don't see how the mechanism that he proposes achieves any differential pressure. Something profound is missing from his diagrams. The hydrostatic pressure is equal in all chambers regardless of how small or large the opening is, as long as it is still open to both sides. Contrary to what people may think, brake fluid doesn’t “flow” anywhere. Compared to a road car, the brake fluid in a racing car is pretty much stationary and the only thing that changes is the hydrostatic pressure which is uniform in the brake circuit. This allows the force on the pedal instantly pressurize the entire brake system which is exactly what drivers want. Instant brake application and feedback.

The valve will only close itself based on steering input (and then stay closed until pressure in the inner wheel circuit drops back down below the pressure of the outer wheel circuit when it closed. I don’t think that kind of system could be used in a repeatable way. You are line locking the outside wheel at an arbitrary pressure that depends on the amount of pressure that was applied before the driver steered into the corner. If he then lets off of the brake, both sides are open again and there is no differential. There would have to be some very precise and repetitive braking and steering patterns to use something as described above.

The way I think the system that he draws would actually work is for a driver to complete most of the braking in a straight line when the valve is open to both left and right rear calipers. Then the electronics would move the brake balance rearwards automatically as the driver releases the pedal (brake migration is allowed) at which point the driver has started to turn in and one of the valves needs to be closed. Either the inside rear brake is dragged passively, or it is done with the pedal input from the driver. The correct side that needs to be closed depends on how such a system would be implemented.

This is assuming what Scarbs has drawn is the actual implementation of an F1 team.

https://i.postimg.cc/Gts903V9/image.png

It’s worth remembering that Scarbs is a journalist turned technical analyst so I’m not surprised that he drew something that doesn’t make sense in engineering terms. He has done it before.

There was also talk of an accumulator, which the inertial valve could have opened to bleed pressure on the outside wheels.

Could have also been it worked only when the driver comes off the brake pedal and trail brakes into the corner with a slight amount of brake pressure

[PlatinumZealot]

The longer that I look at the drawing of Scarbs, the more I don't see how the mechanism that he proposes achieves any differential pressure. Something profound is missing from his diagrams. The hydrostatic pressure is equal in all chambers regardless of how small or large the opening is, as long as it is still open to both sides. Contrary to what people may think, brake fluid doesn’t “flow” anywhere. Compared to a road car, the brake fluid in a racing car is pretty much stationary and the only thing that changes is the hydrostatic pressure which is uniform in the brake circuit. This allows the force on the pedal instantly pressurize the entire brake system which is exactly what drivers want. Instant brake application and feedback.

Only correct in static and quasi-static situations.

[PlatinumZealot]

If Max comes third behind Norris for the remaining nine races, where does that put us?

[PapayaFan481]

If Max comes third behind Norris for the remaining nine races, where does that put us?

In a very strange place....

1st to 3rd is 10 points, with 9 races remaining and a current gap of 70 points, it gives us Lando as WDC, even if Max somehow got fastest lap in all those races, and would surely also give us McLaren as WCC.

[PapayaFan481]

I'm aware that I'm going to sound like a stuffy middle aged bloke now, but remember when drivers got told off for swearing on team radio/camera

[terefere]

If Max comes third behind Norris for the remaining nine races, where does that put us?

I would love to see McLaren and Lando stealing the WCC and WDC in the second half of the season, preferably during the last race, but let's be honest, Lando is not winning the remaining 9 races. The longest winning streak Max had was 10 races, Vettel had 9, Schumacher had 7 and Hamilton had only 5. Norris is not going to win all remaining races.

But who knows, maybe RB will face some reliability issues. Max will be fighting in the traffic more, maybe he will crash out. It could be close towards the end.

[chrisc90]

I, too, find it very very unlikely that Norris is going to win all the remaining races. Best case for Lando, would be a Max DNF at some point. Thats also presuming that Lando can make the rest of the races without any engine/component penalties.

[PapayaFan481]

If Max comes third behind Norris for the remaining nine races, where does that put us?

I would love to see McLaren and Lando stealing the WCC and WDC in the second half of the season, preferably during the last race, but let's be honest, Lando is not winning the remaining 9 races. The longest winning streak Max had was 10 races, Vettel had 9, Schumacher had 7 and Hamilton had only 5. Norris is not going to win all remaining races.

But who knows, maybe RB will face some reliability issues. Max will be fighting in the traffic more, maybe he will crash out. It could be close towards the end.

To be fair, Lando doesn't need to win all of them, just outscore Max by enough points...

[chrisc90]

If Max comes third behind Norris for the remaining nine races, where does that put us?

I would love to see McLaren and Lando stealing the WCC and WDC in the second half of the season, preferably during the last race, but let's be honest, Lando is not winning the remaining 9 races. The longest winning streak Max had was 10 races, Vettel had 9, Schumacher had 7 and Hamilton had only 5. Norris is not going to win all remaining races.

But who knows, maybe RB will face some reliability issues. Max will be fighting in the traffic more, maybe he will crash out. It could be close towards the end.

To be fair, Lando doesn't need to win all of them, just outscore Max by enough points...

Thats a average points difference of 7.7 points over the next 9 races. Quite a big haul when you consider the points system where by 2nd to 3rd is 3 points and 4th to 5th then drops down to 2 points. Its still a pretty big hill for Lando to climb, and overhaul the difference, unless he's finishing first and/or Max has a DNF.

If Lando comes 2nd, then Max has to come 4th. Lando 3rd, then Max can finish 6th.

Lando needs to outscore Max fairly damn well if he wants to stand a chance.

[michl420]

The longer that I look at the drawing of Scarbs, the more I don't see how the mechanism that he proposes achieves any differential pressure. Something profound is missing from his diagrams. The hydrostatic pressure is equal in all chambers regardless of how small or large the opening is, as long as it is still open to both sides. Contrary to what people may think, brake fluid doesn’t “flow” anywhere. Compared to a road car, the brake fluid in a racing car is pretty much stationary and the only thing that changes is the hydrostatic pressure which is uniform in the brake circuit. This allows the force on the pedal instantly pressurize the entire brake system which is exactly what drivers want. Instant brake application and feedback.

Only correct in static and quasi-static situations.

Maybe it is not part but a full blockage of the outer wheel brake line. In the middle of the corner the driver touches the pedal just a little and the inner rear wheel would brake much more then the front. I think it could work
but it sounds like a very risky system.