2024 Mclaren Formula 1 Team

[FittingMechanics]

What is the problem for me is that the defending driver can always just defend the inside, ease off on his brakes and run the other guy wide and it's a unbeatable defense.

No, you can brake earlier and switch back. Lando was just not sharp enough.
You could never just hang on the outside of heavy braking corner, in no racing decade, in nearly no racing series.

I think a Hamilton or Alonso would not just try to overtake on the outside...not the first time this season to be honest.

Braking early and switch back can be defended against. Norris tried to do it for 5 laps and couldn't get it done.

A really capable racer like Max will start braking when you start braking (alongside you) and either make the corner to block the apex and the switchback or let off his brakes to force you wide (if you are going deep).

He just needs to be alongside you and brake when you brake.

In an ideal world, DRS wouldn't allow easy overtakes between similar cars but the racing etiquette and rules would allow two drivers to go side by side in the corner.

Well, again, this was never wanted in F1 since Mercedes was fighting themselves. That would have cost time, so they applied rules where one driver needs to yield. The issue is, that their lobby was too strong and this was taken into F1 rules (not FIA!).
[/quote]
I don't know the details. Whoever made it into a rule needs to think about whether that improves the racing/spectacle or makes it less interesting. I would want drivers to be able to stick it on the outside and then we can get more action and maybe for multiple corners.

[mwillems]

There will always be ways to exploit the rules, due to the fact that so many parts of their application are subjective. The rules would work a lot better if, for instance, certain track layouts complemented them. Pointing only to the rules is disingenuous.

The simple fact is that the car wasn't fast enough with DRS open and in my view, for a couple of evenly matched cars in straight line pace, the DRS zone was too short. I also think that gravel, as many have suggested, would be a great idea. I have no issue with changing the rules so that a driver has to afford space in a larger window of opportunity than now, but it'll still be abused.

I'm disappointed with the outcome, but Austin produced fantastic racing yesterday.

Not sure I agree that the DRS was too short. They were two closely matched cars, maybe Norris was 0.5s faster at that time. Giving an easy overtake due to DRS would rob us of close racing.

What is the problem for me is that the defending driver can always just defend the inside, ease off on his brakes and run the other guy wide and it's a unbeatable defense. Piastri did a similar thing in Baku but he wasn't forcing the other driver off or going off to do it.

In an ideal world, DRS wouldn't allow easy overtakes between similar cars but the racing etiquette and rules would allow two drivers to go side by side in the corner. Then we would get an amazing side by side action with leaving enough space. The way the rules are now you only get the side by side action if the defender is not hugging the inside and forcing the other off.

I'm not talking easy overtakes, probably 10-20m longer would have seen plenty of exciting fighting, but if you have two closely matched cars and DRS isn't enough to get your nose into the corner at the same time as the other guy, it might be that it wasn't quite enough.

Piastri may not have done the same thing, but maybe he should have, and maybe we should be exploiting the rules on track, like we exploit them off it.

[FittingMechanics]

I'm not talking easy overtakes, probably 10-20m longer would have seen plenty of exciting fighting, but if you have two closely matched cars and DRS isn't enough to get your nose into the corner at the same time as the other guy, it might be that it wasn't quite enough.

Piastri may not have done the same thing, but maybe he should have, and maybe we should be exploiting the rules on track, like we exploit them off it.

Well judging DRS length needed that accurately is hard. Maybe if they had ability to change the activation point during the weekend after they can observe the effect. Maybe have couple of options and then during the race they can adjust if it is not strong enough or reduce it if it is too strong. Why not?

But yeah, this whole issue probably came because Norris couldn't get close enough to make many attempts or try different moves. For example to try and dive on the inside or maybe force Max to move under braking like in Austria. It's really hard to do if you can just barely catch up. So frustrating.

If what I understood correctly, they didn't race with the new parts and they will bring more to Mexico. Hopefully the team gets some pace from it so we can easily seal WCC.

[basti313]

It's a grey area of the rules. Some stewards will see common sense, some will apply the letter of the law. And so this subjectivity, or inconsistency, exists.

Sorry, I do not see much grey here. They are applying this to the cm judgement (similar to the white line). The problem is that we either do not understand it or not really look at the right point. Maybe we even do not know which point they judge. But over this season, this was very well judged on the cm...it just does not make sense in racing reality.

The only subjectivity is in the track limits, there are track limits where they delete times, but do not apply to the budget for the penalty. Otherwise they would have needed to hand another pen for this. There they subjectively cross out some and some not.

As for the tyres, we were a second a lap quicker with cooked tyres once released

You can not count this. At this point Ver tires were also cooking after he tried to follow Lando too close.
Overall it was a 6 lap tire advantage on a fairly similar paced car...not easy to overtake...and this is fine.

The issue was again the start. P1 to P4 in the first corner. However this happend, this needs to be better.

[mwillems]

https://i.imgur.com/Y3TI9Yt.png

Really weird first stint. Both McLaren's so slow but here it's Lando vs Leclerc vs Max.

Leclerc and Max both display a normal progression of pace. They start at a certain level, Leclerc a bit faster because he wants to break DRS. Then they both stabilize to a certain level of pace and from there their laptimes get progressively slower the deeper into the stint they go right until they pit.

Lando on the other hand, starts out with horrible performance, getting faster and faster as the stint progresses, until he too (not shown in this graph because it happened a couple of laps later), starts showing signs of tire wear and gets slower before he pits.

Other than those first 15 laps, Lando was on par or faster than Leclerc, discounting the laps stuck behind Max. Hard to gauge the second stint, because of the 5 lap tire delta, but I imagine without that it would have been on par with Leclerc.

Very bizarre car behavior. Perhaps some weird problem with taking too long to get the tires at the right operating window. Maybe an over-correction via the setup in a bid to try and improve the tire wear problems they saw in the sprint.

If it wasn't for that huge slump at the start, Lando would have overcut Max with pace alone, so it's frustrating that they couldn't get the car into the right window. The sprint format really screwed them because they did not hit the ground running from the get-go like RedBull and Ferrari did.

About halfway through the first stint, we started to pick up the pace. But we always struggle more on heavier fuel, it's a bit of a problem they do need to address. Perhaps the chassis itself still carries a bit too much weight.

But yeah, because of T1 and the subsequent lack of pace for 16 laps, it finished us off. Were we being conservative? The mediums just kept going faster when others were slowing or even changing to the hards. it may well have been a clever way of ensuring clean air running and getting a good tyre delta.

I liked the strategy and had we kept people behind for a few laps at the start, it could have been a very different race. The car was actually very strong, no reason to come away from this weekend thinking there as a big gap in pace.

[mwillems]

I'm not talking easy overtakes, probably 10-20m longer would have seen plenty of exciting fighting, but if you have two closely matched cars and DRS isn't enough to get your nose into the corner at the same time as the other guy, it might be that it wasn't quite enough.

Piastri may not have done the same thing, but maybe he should have, and maybe we should be exploiting the rules on track, like we exploit them off it.

Well judging DRS length needed that accurately is hard. Maybe if they had ability to change the activation point during the weekend after they can observe the effect. Maybe have couple of options and then during the race they can adjust if it is not strong enough or reduce it if it is too strong. Why not?

But yeah, this whole issue probably came because Norris couldn't get close enough to make many attempts or try different moves. For example to try and dive on the inside or maybe force Max to move under braking like in Austria. It's really hard to do if you can just barely catch up. So frustrating.

If what I understood correctly, they didn't race with the new parts and they will bring more to Mexico. Hopefully the team gets some pace from it so we can easily seal WCC.

I'm not trying to call it out. Just observing that the DRS was probably not long enough. unbiased fans may disagree though, as they got the racing and controversy that they wanted.

[Ben1980]

One common trait with many of us here in this thread is that members are too emotionally invested in the team and drivers. Just take a step back and look at the big picture holistically :

McLaren has been the faster car than RedBull from race#6 (miami) to race#19 (texas) , on some tracks it's even been 0.8-1.0s faster per lap.

Miami onwards until now (14 races where Mclaren is the faster machine) :
VER has scored 252 points, with 3 race wins, 4 podium places and 4 sprint wins.
NOR has scored 242 points. with 3 race wins, 6 podium places and 0 sprint wins.
This simply means 'execution of race' by team and driver is superior by Redbull and Verstappen, in comparison to McLaren and Norris. Whether we like it or not, this is the simple truth.

And I don't blame McLaren or Norris for this. They haven't been on the WDC/WCC fighting level for decades, they can't simply flick a switch and turn into a winning machine all of a sudden. The latter half of 2023 and 2024 are excellent seasons for Mclaren and Norris, they are learning and sharpening themselves so much. They made a brilliant driver call by throwing out Ricciardo and bringing in Piastri, and that's the reason they are leading WCC this year.
Look at the positives. Give Norris a 'a year of fighting' to bring home the WDC. This media and fan pressure is what is probably getting to him. Leave the guy alone.

This is just about believing the narrative that's formed. Yes Mclaren have been consistently fast, they haven't consistently been the fastest.

The RB has been consistently pretty good, just not as good as it has been.

Imola - RBR had pole and won, Canada at times red bull were faster especially on a dry track and Spain not much in it.

Austria Red Bull were faster, even yesterday they were even.

Have Mclaren made mistakes, yep. But, the narrative that they have been consistently faster since Miami is wrong, but accepted by many.

Even the races Lando dominated Max was a comfy second. Even in Baku the Red Bull was challenging for the win.

[PapayaFan481]

OK. On to the next race. Mexico is normally a high DF circuit, similar to Zandvort and Singapore levels.... So that gives me hope that we can be well and truly in the hunt for the win!!

[Watto]

There will always be ways to exploit the rules, due to the fact that so many parts of their application are subjective. The rules would work a lot better if, for instance, certain track layouts complemented them. Pointing only to the rules is disingenuous.

The simple fact is that the car wasn't fast enough with DRS open and in my view, for a couple of evenly matched cars in straight line pace, the DRS zone was too short. I also think that gravel, as many have suggested, would be a great idea. I have no issue with changing the rules so that a driver has to afford space in a larger window of opportunity than now, but it'll still be abused.

I'm disappointed with the outcome, but Austin produced fantastic racing yesterday.

Thats my point I guess. I am okay with new rules around it just think its far easier said than done. Max here knows the rules inside out and seems to know how to use them to his advantage..



I think Lando will learn too though and is.Its his first year really where he has been genuinely fighting for the lead/WDC I think we saw last year he almost flew the white flag to Max he isn't now. I am sure he will continue to learn. too.

[_cerber1]

I think the biggest takeaway from the Grand Prix is ​​that Red Bull were vulnerable in qualifying and the race. For all the problems McLaren had, our pace wasn't that bad.

[FittingMechanics]

I am quite happy with how McLaren dealt with the Verstappen/Norris overtake. They knew overtaking him again will be hard or may end up being forced off again. Instead of being passive and returning the position they stayed ahead and tried to make the gap. This is smart and should be done in the future if this happens again. I think they probably expected to get the penalty but judged that it is worth a risk. I fully agree.

Overtaking Max on the outside will be almost impossible so you just need to use any gray areas to your advantage. Overtaking by being forced off and then getting 5 second gap is such a gray area that Norris can use against Max if this happens again.

[Ben1980]

I think the biggest takeaway from the Grand Prix is ​​that Red Bull were vulnerable in qualifying and the race. For all the problems McLaren had, our pace wasn't that bad.

The fixed red bull was very similar to the struggling Mclaren.

Unfortunately the Ferrari was ahead of both!

[FittingMechanics]

I think the biggest takeaway from the Grand Prix is ​​that Red Bull were vulnerable in qualifying and the race. For all the problems McLaren had, our pace wasn't that bad.

The fixed red bull was very similar to the struggling Mclaren.

Unfortunately the Ferrari was ahead of both!

Not in qualifying pace.

[crapu7]

Could've, should've, would've, won't change the outcome. The real issue for Mclaren after this race is Ferrari performance from my opinion, as they were better in race pace with no upgrades.

What are the chances for Mclaren to bring an upgrade in Mexico significant enough to offset the margin?

[chrisc90]

I am quite happy with how McLaren dealt with the Verstappen/Norris overtake. They knew overtaking him again will be hard or may end up being forced off again. Instead of being passive and returning the position they stayed ahead and tried to make the gap. This is smart and should be done in the future if this happens again. I think they probably expected to get the penalty but judged that it is worth a risk. I fully agree.

Overtaking Max on the outside will be almost impossible so you just need to use any gray areas to your advantage. Overtaking by being forced off and then getting 5 second gap is such a gray area that Norris can use against Max if this happens again.

Normally it would be 10s. Was only 5 because Max also didn’t remain on track.
If similar happens again, and he remains on track. It’s 10s.

Key point to note - overtake Max on the inside.