2024 Mclaren Formula 1 Team

[FittingMechanics]

Imo opinion watching it I knew Lando was gunna get a penalty because of how the stewarts ruled earlier incidents.
After been pushed wide Lando should of let Max pass out ahead of that corner and by the rules Max would of got the Penalty.

But you are wrong. Defending driver needs to be ahead at apex and then he is able to force the other driver off. It is quite likely Max would not have got a penalty.

In fact I am 100% certain he would not get a penalty if he was ahead at apex, forced Norris off but remained on track himself. This is what is the problem in my opinion. This should not be legal. If someone is alongside you it should not be that you can legally forced them off because you are defender ahead at apex. It almost outlaws overtakes on the outside.

In this specific situation there is a chance VER would get a penalty because he didn't manage to stay on track himself so stewards can claim he was not in control of his car. Still, I don't think they would have given him a penalty as it is easier to stay silent. They would justify that both went off thus no one was forced.


What is the downside if the defender is required to leave a space when someone is alongside? I don't see any, we could get more overtakes (this is a positive as they made DRS specifically to help with it, also new aero regulations with ground effect were introduced to improve racing and amount of overtakes), we could get more side by side action in the corners (again a benefit). Only downside that could be theoretically considered is that it may make defending much harder. Not sure I agree with that, if defending becomes hard then you can easily just remove DRS and we have clean racing with hard overtakes in the corners.

[CjC]

I don't really have the energy to bother with Max or his trolls anymore and I am glad you mentioned it to the mods. However I am not sure what triggered you here. Was it that I called his racecraft crap? If the word crap offended you then I apologise and allow me to rephrase. Max Verstappen's racecraft is that of a bully. A bully that likes to divebomb others off the track either he is on the attack or defence because he doesn't know of any other way of racing. I simply don't like these kind of drivers. It's a personal preference. Now let's not bring that up again please.

Well-described divebombs. Here is an onboard video of those:

Yea a very valid video, not the best from Lando. Ive noticed how we haven’t seen anything like that since from Lando.
He’s learnt from Austria and moved on/ improved.
(This isn’t aimed at you) Folk forget that this is Landos first race winning season, he’s learning on the job, simple as.
I feel sorry for Lando sometimes, he gets the mick taken out of him for driving a ‘tractor’ at McLaren, he gets the mick taken out of him for not winning a race, now it seems he’s getting the mick taken out of him/ criticised for not leading the WDC.
Good job the salary is decent

[mwillems]

Imo opinion watching it I knew Lando was gunna get a penalty because of how the stewarts ruled earlier incidents.
After been pushed wide Lando should of let Max pass out ahead of that corner and by the rules Max would of got the Penalty.

But you are wrong. Defending driver needs to be ahead at apex and then he is able to force the other driver off. It is quite likely Max would not have got a penalty.

In fact I am 100% certain he would not get a penalty if he was ahead at apex, forced Norris off but remained on track himself. This is what is the problem in my opinion. This should not be legal. If someone is alongside you it should not be that you can legally forced them off because you are defender ahead at apex. It almost outlaws overtakes on the outside.

In this specific situation there is a chance VER would get a penalty because he didn't manage to stay on track himself so stewards can claim he was not in control of his car. Still, I don't think they would have given him a penalty as it is easier to stay silent. They would justify that both went off thus no one was forced.


What is the downside if the defender is required to leave a space when someone is alongside? I don't see any, we could get more overtakes (this is a positive as they made DRS specifically to help with it, also new aero regulations with ground effect were introduced to improve racing and amount of overtakes), we could get more side by side action in the corners (again a benefit). Only downside that could be theoretically considered is that it may make defending much harder. Not sure I agree with that, if defending becomes hard then you can easily just remove DRS and we have clean racing with hard overtakes in the corners.

I guess there is the question of who is defending. Lando was actually ahead before the braking zone, if not by much. When is an overtake complete and was Max defending or actually attacking by going late on the brakes?

The rules around the apex are cut and dry and from that perspective, if Lando is the attacker then it has been applied correctly. But I am curious as to what "completes" an overtake, having a complete car length ahead before a braking zone itself does seem like it should be sufficient. I think that if there is a rule clarification, this is perhaps where it could be in part.

Interestingly, I remember asking this question before, of what completes an overtake... time to do some forum searching, when and why has this come up previously...?

[mwillems]

Ahhh I found them. It was Singapore in 23. Hamilton had overtaken Lando, exited a corner and then used a runoff at the next corner after.

[Jurgen von Diaz]

I don't really have the energy to bother with Max or his trolls anymore and I am glad you mentioned it to the mods. However I am not sure what triggered you here. Was it that I called his racecraft crap? If the word crap offended you then I apologise and allow me to rephrase. Max Verstappen's racecraft is that of a bully. A bully that likes to divebomb others off the track either he is on the attack or defence because he doesn't know of any other way of racing. I simply don't like these kind of drivers. It's a personal preference. Now let's not bring that up again please.

Well-described divebombs. Here is an onboard video of those:

Yea a very valid video, not the best from Lando. Ive noticed how we haven’t seen anything like that since from Lando.
He’s learnt from Austria and moved on/ improved.
(This isn’t aimed at you) Folk forget that this is Landos first race winning season, he’s learning on the job, simple as.
I feel sorry for Lando sometimes, he gets the mick taken out of him for driving a ‘tractor’ at McLaren, he gets the mick taken out of him for not winning a race, now it seems he’s getting the mick taken out of him/ criticised for not leading the WDC.
Good job the salary is decent

These dive bombs are best from Lando. If you don't try, you're hardly going to succeed. Dive bombs are wrongly stigmatized; they are hard racing and should be part of the game when fighting for a championship. That is one reason why 2021 was the best season of all time.

[Darth-Piekus]

In that case both Lando and especially Max have to learn from Oscar Piastri how to dive bomb without sending the other off the track.

[FittingMechanics]

I guess there is the question of who is defending. Lando was actually ahead before the braking zone, if not by much. When is an overtake complete and was Max defending or actually attacking by going late on the brakes?

The rules around the apex are cut and dry and from that perspective, if Lando is the attacker then it has been applied correctly. But I am curious as to what "completes" an overtake, having a complete car length ahead before a braking zone itself does seem like it should be sufficient. I think that if there is a rule clarification, this is perhaps where it could be in part.

Interestingly, I remember asking this question before, of what completes an overtake... time to do some forum searching, when and why has this come up previously...?

To me the overtake is not complete unless the attacking car is fully ahead (no overlap and probably out of the corner). Or to make it simpler, if the driver started the straight ahead (especially fully ahead) of the other driver, he is the defending driver until the other overtakes fully without overlap. Just because Ricciardo licks the stamp and sends it doesn't make him a defender at the moment he gets ahead of the defender. To me this seems like common sense.

But to make things simpler, they should remove the whole who is a defender thing. It should be a simple rule - you have to leave a space if there is an overlap. Regardless if you are defender or the attacker. I could accept need for some kind of "overlap percentage" but to me this seems like it will just make things that much messier, drivers will probably claim they were over/under the percentage and then the stewards will have to go and measure this. Just a mess. With "always leave a space when overlap" it is simple and the driver who is being forced wide can always just hold his line and the crash will be the fault of the other driver. It doesn't make sense to have different rules depending on who is the defender. Attacker has to leave the space, defender doesn't, it's just complicated.

Go with the simple solution (always leave a space), it will lead to better racing, more overtakes and action which is all positive.

[Jurgen von Diaz]

In that case both Lando and especially Max have to learn from Oscar Piastri how to dive bomb without sending the other off the track.

Of course, but Verstappen also made many overtakes at the beginning of his career in the midst of the Mercedes domination and took many victories. At the same time, Piastri could learn consistency from Verstappen how to be on top race after race, and it's silly to compare Verstappen to Piastri who hasn't battle championship.

[Big Gun]

Imo opinion watching it I knew Lando was gunna get a penalty because of how the stewarts ruled earlier incidents.
After been pushed wide Lando should of let Max pass out ahead of that corner and by the rules Max would of got the Penalty.

Think Alonso would of backed off so Max got the penalty, but Lando doesnt have that cunning yet of a Alonso or Max.

off topic, Piastri stocks have fallen imo. Lando is just faster in everyway.

1) Max, Lando, Lecerc
2) Hamilton, Alonso, Russel.
3) Sainz, Piastri, Hulk.

Piastri isnt in the top 6 of best drivers of this moment, just lacks about 2 tenths.

Piastri has a ton of room to grow. I see no reason why his "stocks have fallen". He's no worse than Lando, Leclerc, or Russell in their second years.

Current Alonso is not Tier 2 IMO. I'd argue that Russell and Hamilton's inconsistency this year might put them out of Tier 2 as well. Some of that is the car but they haven't been their best. Lando and Leclerc are however.

Im talking pure pace. IMO Alonso is way more consistent than Hamilton and Russell, also imo Alonso would be a lot closer to Max in the championship than Lando, plus in this last race Alonso's racecraft is second to none and im sure he would of found a way past Max, or would of gotten Max a penalty.

I should clarify, that my ranking was more on Qualy Pace as for overall I have Max,Lando,Lecerc, Hamilton and Alonso still in tier 1.

Tier 1 drivers would beat any other driver in equal machinery thats not also in Tier 1 over a season. thats how I rate my Tier 1 guys.
Piastri just doesnt have the X factor, he is always behind Lando.

[Darth-Piekus]

I would say to leave Oscar alone. He is in just his second year and he will learn.

[Big Gun]

I would say to leave Oscar alone. He is in just his second year and he will learn.

Brundle has always said that after 3 years, that thats basically the drivers level.
So next year he gunna need to find 2 tenths to push Norris

[Jurgen von Diaz]

I would say to leave Oscar alone. He is in just his second year and he will learn.

Brundle has always said that after 3 years, that thats basically the drivers level.
So next year he gunna need to find 2 tenths to push Norris

You guys remember when Norris took a beating from Sainz the first two years? I wouldn't be concerned about Piastri when he has performed at this level against a prime Norris. I still expect Piastri to give Norris a hard time next year because he has more balls than Norris when it comes down to wheel-to-wheel fighting and race starts. Like you said, Piastri is lacking raw speed compare to Norris.

[mwillems]

I guess there is the question of who is defending. Lando was actually ahead before the braking zone, if not by much. When is an overtake complete and was Max defending or actually attacking by going late on the brakes?

The rules around the apex are cut and dry and from that perspective, if Lando is the attacker then it has been applied correctly. But I am curious as to what "completes" an overtake, having a complete car length ahead before a braking zone itself does seem like it should be sufficient. I think that if there is a rule clarification, this is perhaps where it could be in part.

Interestingly, I remember asking this question before, of what completes an overtake... time to do some forum searching, when and why has this come up previously...?

To me the overtake is not complete unless the attacking car is fully ahead (no overlap and probably out of the corner). Or to make it simpler, if the driver started the straight ahead (especially fully ahead) of the other driver, he is the defending driver until the other overtakes fully without overlap. Just because Ricciardo licks the stamp and sends it doesn't make him a defender at the moment he gets ahead of the defender. To me this seems like common sense.

But to make things simpler, they should remove the whole who is a defender thing. It should be a simple rule - you have to leave a space if there is an overlap. Regardless if you are defender or the attacker. I could accept need for some kind of "overlap percentage" but to me this seems like it will just make things that much messier, drivers will probably claim they were over/under the percentage and then the stewards will have to go and measure this. Just a mess. With "always leave a space when overlap" it is simple and the driver who is being forced wide can always just hold his line and the crash will be the fault of the other driver. It doesn't make sense to have different rules depending on who is the defender. Attacker has to leave the space, defender doesn't, it's just complicated.

Go with the simple solution (always leave a space), it will lead to better racing, more overtakes and action which is all positive.

I think he was fully ahead though, all of his car was in front of Verstappen's before the braking zone. Feel free to correct me, but this is my view and what I can see. So it is an interesting one. Totally fine with how they looked at it, but I feel like the idea of what completes an overtake is part of the grey area, I'd dearly love for someone to show me where this is defined. If it isn't defined then I have to say, I would be very baffled to understand a sport that values overtaking as much as anything else, but hasn't defined what an overtake is and what the rules are that define an overtake.

[JPower]

Imo opinion watching it I knew Lando was gunna get a penalty because of how the stewarts ruled earlier incidents.
After been pushed wide Lando should of let Max pass out ahead of that corner and by the rules Max would of got the Penalty.

Think Alonso would of backed off so Max got the penalty, but Lando doesnt have that cunning yet of a Alonso or Max.

off topic, Piastri stocks have fallen imo. Lando is just faster in everyway.

1) Max, Lando, Lecerc
2) Hamilton, Alonso, Russel.
3) Sainz, Piastri, Hulk.

Piastri isnt in the top 6 of best drivers of this moment, just lacks about 2 tenths.

Piastri has a ton of room to grow. I see no reason why his "stocks have fallen". He's no worse than Lando, Leclerc, or Russell in their second years.

Current Alonso is not Tier 2 IMO. I'd argue that Russell and Hamilton's inconsistency this year might put them out of Tier 2 as well. Some of that is the car but they haven't been their best. Lando and Leclerc are however.

Im talking pure pace. IMO Alonso is way more consistent than Hamilton and Russell, also imo Alonso would be a lot closer to Max in the championship than Lando, plus in this last race Alonso's racecraft is second to none and im sure he would of found a way past Max, or would of gotten Max a penalty.

I should clarify, that my ranking was more on Qualy Pace as for overall I have Max,Lando,Lecerc, Hamilton and Alonso still in tier 1.

Tier 1 drivers would beat any other driver in equal machinery thats not also in Tier 1 over a season. thats how I rate my Tier 1 guys.
Piastri just doesnt have the X factor, he is always behind Lando.

That’s the thing, Alonso doesn’t have elite pure pace in qualifying. That’s never been his strong suit, even in his prime. He was not the qualifier Hamilton or Vettel was.

I don’t think he’s any quicker on one lap than Hulk or Sainz right now. Might be slower in fact. Sainz is something like 0.03% behind Leclerc in qualifying this season. Don’t see how he can be Tier 3 in qualifying speed given the criteria.

We’re way off-topic but free to discuss in another thread. I’m just not seeing how you’re coming to this Piastri conclusion.

[Darth-Piekus]

Oscar will definately become better and I am sure he will improve his speed pace.