Red Bull suspects McLaren and a few other teams of filling water into the tyres

[Farnborough]

You're labelling people's views with a distorted opinion by calling them "haters".

Also with a short memory clearly not stretching back to the point in which McL were fined into 100 million (estimate from recall) dollars ..... for cheating, that's if you want to dramatise things

This, disclosure or whatever people want to call it, has always been part of F1. It is, defacto as it's often used, a method of bringing out into the open something that is likely happening behind closed doors, whomsoever may be carrying that out.

The net result being that it will stop now IF anyone were to be using it.

It is a technical forum, these are factually part of how this sport is conducted.

Calling every opposition to your view (papayafan481) by a derogatory name, is simply juvenile.

[chrisc90]

Point it - this got raised in media before the weekend. So when it’s been brought up as much as it did- and potentially with the support from other teams - if you were the one doing it… you would be silly to do it again when it was under so much scrutiny.

[PlatinumZealot]

... At 80 degrees C air can hold 8 grams of water per cubic meter at 100% Rel humidity so it's not much to get into a tyre.

Add to this the improvements in thermal conductity (note convection will come into play more) but conductivity also important at the boundary layer.
https://i.sstatic.net/aj3bh.png

what 'improvement in thermal conductivity' does the graph show ?

Yes a mistake on my part! The source was not credible and I didn't even realise their graph had bad data from some cheap software...(Just trust my instincts as usual my friend! )


Better source https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... lar_energy



Despite this, as I said, the increase in heat transfer coefficient would be more useful, just posting this for more information.

[djones]

Can somebody please explain in simple terms how this would ever be an advantage?

Surely any water warms up in a single lap (reaches maximum heat capacity) then it is nothing more than a disadvantage due to its weight.

[Seanspeed]

Can somebody please explain in simple terms how this would ever be an advantage?

Surely any water warms up in a single lap (reaches maximum heat capacity) then it is nothing more than a disadvantage due to its weight.

That's normal water, not specifically formulated Shell Tire Water™ that cost $80,000,000 to develop.

Sorry, I'm from three years into an alternate future where this never gets clamped down on.

[PapayaFan481]

You're labelling people's views with a distorted opinion by calling them "haters".

Also with a short memory clearly not stretching back to the point in which McL were fined into 100 million (estimate from recall) dollars ..... for cheating, that's if you want to dramatise things

This, disclosure or whatever people want to call it, has always been part of F1. It is, defacto as it's often used, a method of bringing out into the open something that is likely happening behind closed doors, whomsoever may be carrying that out.

The net result being that it will stop now IF anyone were to be using it.

It is a technical forum, these are factually part of how this sport is conducted.

Calling every opposition to your view (papayafan481) by a derogatory name, is simply juvenile.

I am merely treating others how they treat me. People dispute facts with opinions, that is not how science or rules work.

I clearly remember 2007 thank you. I also remember 2021 when Red Bull knowingly broke the budget cap. What is your point?

I'm sorry of you find me juvenile. I find people who deny facts juvenile. If you have a problem with how I react to thing read my footer and if you are unable to accept that some people see the world differently than you do, feel free to report me to the mods. Hopefully they're more open minded.

You say this is a technical forum, yet the majority of threads are more like the comments sections on social media. The only technical conversation takes place in the car threads and related PU/aero/et al threads. Certainly not in the "they beat us so must be cheating wah" threads.

[FW17]

Can somebody please explain in simple terms how this would ever be an advantage?

Surely any water warms up in a single lap (reaches maximum heat capacity) then it is nothing more than a disadvantage due to its weight.

From the previous post with the graph, 100% humid air is going to conduct heat better than dry air by 200%. This will help in transferring heat from tread to rim. The rim being cooler surface than tyre as heat transfers better from aluminium-magnisium alloy than rubber.

I guess the tyre stays in the window for longer as it is better cooled by the rim.


I was wondering why all commentators said that it was out right illegal, are their specific rules?

[organic]

Can somebody please explain in simple terms how this would ever be an advantage?

Surely any water warms up in a single lap (reaches maximum heat capacity) then it is nothing more than a disadvantage due to its weight.

From the previous post with the graph, 100% humid air is going to conduct heat better than dry air by 200%. This will help in transferring heat from tread to rim. The rim being cooler surface than tyre as heat transfers better from aluminium-magnisium alloy than rubber.

I guess the tyre stays in the window for longer as it is better cooled by the rim.


I was wondering why all commentators said that it was out right illegal, are their specific rules?

Yeah filling the tyre with water was outlawed by TD some years ago after red bull experimented with it.

[Mulman]

The principle works like a heat pipe, which is a very effective heat transfer principle. Even some laptop CPU are cooled with it.

[FW17]

Can somebody please explain in simple terms how this would ever be an advantage?

Surely any water warms up in a single lap (reaches maximum heat capacity) then it is nothing more than a disadvantage due to its weight.

From the previous post with the graph, 100% humid air is going to conduct heat better than dry air by 200%. This will help in transferring heat from tread to rim. The rim being cooler surface than tyre as heat transfers better from aluminium-magnisium alloy than rubber.

I guess the tyre stays in the window for longer as it is better cooled by the rim.


I was wondering why all commentators said that it was out right illegal, are their specific rules?

Yeah filling the tyre with water was outlawed by TD some years ago after red bull experimented with it.

How did they find out the last time?

[organic]

From the previous post with the graph, 100% humid air is going to conduct heat better than dry air by 200%. This will help in transferring heat from tread to rim. The rim being cooler surface than tyre as heat transfers better from aluminium-magnisium alloy than rubber.

I guess the tyre stays in the window for longer as it is better cooled by the rim.


I was wondering why all commentators said that it was out right illegal, are their specific rules?

Yeah filling the tyre with water was outlawed by TD some years ago after red bull experimented with it.

How did they find out the last time?

Probably red bull asked if it was okay since it was legal at the time? As that's how FIA finds out about most so-called grey areas

[Waz]

It's not difficult to make an assumption it's about preventing over heating, and that a small amount of water coated on the inside of the tread through centrifugal force would be helpful.
.

That will certainly not be the case. You absolutely do not want to risk having liquid water inside the tire, because your pressures would be out off control. E.g from 80 to 100 degC the water vapour pressure increases by 0.5 bar/7psi. So your tire pressure would increase by that amount+ the thermal expansion of the air itself.

But according to the graph I posted before, from 40 to 70% humidity your heat transfer almost doubles. With ~100 liter air volume, 30% increase in humidity is in the range of 20cc of water at 80degC. Sounds like something doable to sneak in. At 70% humidity you don't need to worry about condensation (and thus wild pressure fluctuations).

From a technical point of view, it is not a wild accusation to me.

This is why I love this place. First, thanks for the informative insight, although my comment originally was directed at how poorly thought out Gary Andersons article was.

It's strange to me how this has been dismissed on less technical platforms as a ridiculous idea, but the science indicates it's pretty damn valid.

And ... Would be nearly impossible to prove unless specifically checking for it after each race.

[PlatinumZealot]

Can somebody please explain in simple terms how this would ever be an advantage?

Surely any water warms up in a single lap (reaches maximum heat capacity) then it is nothing more than a disadvantage due to its weight.

Water vapour is lighter than air. So if you have it as a vapour at the FIA pressure at a given temperature it would be lighter.

However if the FIA pressure is measured at some temperature at or belowthe dewpoint itmeans more weight. But as calculated before this is only like 5 to 8 grams needed! Which is nothing!

[Farnborough]

You're labelling people's views with a distorted opinion by calling them "haters".

Also with a short memory clearly not stretching back to the point in which McL were fined into 100 million (estimate from recall) dollars ..... for cheating, that's if you want to dramatise things

This, disclosure or whatever people want to call it, has always been part of F1. It is, defacto as it's often used, a method of bringing out into the open something that is likely happening behind closed doors, whomsoever may be carrying that out.

The net result being that it will stop now IF anyone were to be using it.

It is a technical forum, these are factually part of how this sport is conducted.

Calling every opposition to your view (papayafan481) by a derogatory name, is simply juvenile.

I am merely treating others how they treat me. People dispute facts with opinions, that is not how science or rules work.

I clearly remember 2007 thank you. I also remember 2021 when Red Bull knowingly broke the budget cap. What is your point?

I'm sorry of you find me juvenile. I find people who deny facts juvenile. If you have a problem with how I react to thing read my footer and if you are unable to accept that some people see the world differently than you do, feel free to report me to the mods. Hopefully they're more open minded.

You say this is a technical forum, yet the majority of threads are more like the comments sections on social media. The only technical conversation takes place in the car threads and related PU/aero/et al threads. Certainly not in the "they beat us so must be cheating wah" threads.

I apply no label to you, but comment on the words you write.

To come here and use name calling "haters" in attempt to control valid conversation about technical subject, both current and pertinent in this case, is playground behavior. That difines itself, for us all, as juvenile.

If there were something to add, perhaps from intimate knowledge from within McL to corroborate your writing, then that would help.
To subvert, halt or otherwise dictate what others offer, by name calling, then no.

My view of this topic is through the press in quotes from European journalists reporting that in Singapore, a RB tech while waiting their tire dismount after racing saw McL and some other teams had liquid coming from the tire carcass of those teams and voiced that suspicion based on their own previous knowledge of effect possible.

That is important as the wording specifically NOW forbids that as deliberate course of action for any team to take.

To repeat what I've written on forum a few times .... this is very normal to create whispers about potential infringement, from many teams. It's a soft "put up or shut up" situation, usually leading to everyone then making sure they're not then exposed.

Notably, I haven't been aware of McL making a statement about it yet. If there is, then it would help to quote it here. There is a legal behaviour view that to say nothing is equal to a proxy yes confirmation or they've got then to falsify a denial to risk worsening their position. Sometimes its just easier to take the situation and let it slide away, while internal correction is accomplished.

If they've not been using anything of this order, they'll have nothing to worry about, but we'll see in coming races if there's a material difference in performance that could possibly result.

[hollus]

Post, not poster. It is a simple rule. Cut it from here, please and thanks.

It is OK to disagree and it is OK to read things one doesn’t like. But if you reply, reply on the content, nothing good ever comes from replying on the poster.