Red Bull RB21

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Cs98
Cs98
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Joined: 01 Jul 2022, 11:37

Re: Red Bull RB21

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organic wrote:
12 Apr 2025, 21:35
nico5 wrote:
12 Apr 2025, 21:29
Was Tsunoda on a different rear wing or why on earth is he losing .5 to Max on the straights?
No he wasn't
Yes he was on a different wing.

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nico5
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Joined: 12 Mar 2017, 18:55

Re: Red Bull RB21

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Cs98 wrote:
12 Apr 2025, 22:16
organic wrote:
12 Apr 2025, 21:35
nico5 wrote:
12 Apr 2025, 21:29
Was Tsunoda on a different rear wing or why on earth is he losing .5 to Max on the straights?
No he wasn't
Yes he was on a different wing.
Yeah Yuki was on their highest downforce spec. Tells you how much confidence he's got with that rear

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ispano6
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Joined: 09 Mar 2017, 23:56
Location: my playseat

Re: Red Bull RB21

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nico5 wrote:
16 Apr 2025, 01:23
Cs98 wrote:
12 Apr 2025, 22:16
organic wrote:
12 Apr 2025, 21:35


No he wasn't
Yes he was on a different wing.
Yeah Yuki was on their highest downforce spec. Tells you how much confidence he's got with that rear
It's a team decision. Best to get him gradually more accustomed. If it gives him better balance and confidence, he'll be better off than with less wing and slower overall. Problem is the straightline speed isn't there. Best to keep it out of the walls too.

The problem with the RB21 is the floor needs to produce more DF but they rely on the wings. It's particularly sensitive to the wind too.

venkyhere
venkyhere
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Joined: 10 Feb 2024, 06:17

Re: Red Bull RB21

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ispano6 wrote:
16 Apr 2025, 09:54
The problem with the RB21 is the floor needs to produce more DF but they rely on the wings. It's particularly sensitive to the wind too.
RB18,19,20 poduced the 'highest downforce' of any team, from the floors. They could run with significantly less wings than other teams and not lose time in the corners (except slow speed, where the airspeed isn't meaningful enough to produce DF anyway) .

The 'philosophy' as per Pierre Wache, for RB21, was 'sacrifice peak DF, inorder to enjoy a wider working window across all kinds of tracks'. That has crashed like a house of cards - neither is enough DF present, nor is the working window any wider (in fact, narrower) . But someone like Rob Marshall (a disciple of Newey) has gone to McLaren and produced a floor that enjoys both peak DF as well as a wide working window.

Emag
Emag
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Joined: 11 Feb 2019, 14:56

Re: Red Bull RB21

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Rob Marshall is not an aerodynamicist. He does not design the floor. Even if he did, he wouldn't be doing it alone anyway. The TD for aerodynamics at McLaren is Peter Prodromou.
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venkyhere
venkyhere
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Joined: 10 Feb 2024, 06:17

Re: Red Bull RB21

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Emag wrote:
16 Apr 2025, 13:53
Rob Marshall is not an aerodynamicist. He does not design the floor. Even if he did, he wouldn't be doing it alone anyway. The TD for aerodynamics at McLaren is Peter Prodromou.
OK, then both of them, who worked with Newey for long periods. Possibly mentored by him, even.

Cs98
Cs98
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Joined: 01 Jul 2022, 11:37

Re: Red Bull RB21

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nico5 wrote:
16 Apr 2025, 01:23
Cs98 wrote:
12 Apr 2025, 22:16
organic wrote:
12 Apr 2025, 21:35


No he wasn't
Yes he was on a different wing.
Yeah Yuki was on their highest downforce spec. Tells you how much confidence he's got with that rear
That’s not the highest downforce wing. It’s the same one they ran last year in Bahrain.

Rikhart
Rikhart
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Joined: 10 Feb 2009, 20:21

Re: Red Bull RB21

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Image

Seen this in another forum, not sure from what race it is.

f1isgood
f1isgood
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Joined: 31 Oct 2022, 19:52
Location: Continental Europe

Re: Red Bull RB21

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venkyhere wrote:
16 Apr 2025, 10:59
ispano6 wrote:
16 Apr 2025, 09:54
The problem with the RB21 is the floor needs to produce more DF but they rely on the wings. It's particularly sensitive to the wind too.
RB18,19,20 poduced the 'highest downforce' of any team, from the floors. They could run with significantly less wings than other teams and not lose time in the corners (except slow speed, where the airspeed isn't meaningful enough to produce DF anyway) .

The 'philosophy' as per Pierre Wache, for RB21, was 'sacrifice peak DF, inorder to enjoy a wider working window across all kinds of tracks'. That has crashed like a house of cards - neither is enough DF present, nor is the working window any wider (in fact, narrower) . But someone like Rob Marshall (a disciple of Newey) has gone to McLaren and produced a floor that enjoys both peak DF as well as a wide working window.
Where are we drawing conclusions that this car doesn't produce enough floor downforce from?

The overall downforce is lower and that's all we know. The wings are still simple relative to others and other teams have flexi components that give free lap time, going beyond front wing.

I can understand the frustration but how do we know this?
Call a spade, a spade.

Silent Storm
Silent Storm
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Joined: 02 Feb 2015, 18:42

Re: Red Bull RB21

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Translation - Red Bull #RB21 Update Center Cooling layout has been changed.
Until now, heat was dissipated from top to bottom, but now, like other teams, it is dissipated diagonally from bottom to top.
The center of gravity may rise a little, but I think the internal airflow will be better.
I learn from the mistakes of people who take my advice...

Silent Storm
Silent Storm
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Joined: 02 Feb 2015, 18:42

Re: Red Bull RB21

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Hypothesis: Red Bull’s correlation problems stem from Internal Flow Architecture, not Surface Aero

Red Bull’s development struggles with the RB20 and RB21 have been largely attributed to surface aero correlation issues, I believe the root cause may lie deeper in the internal flow architecture and packaging strategy. The evolution from RB19 to RB20 introduced significant changes to the internal cooling layout, many of which are now being reversed in RB21. This backtracking seems to correlate with gradual improvements in real world performance, suggesting the correlation delta lies within internal aero structures rather than external geometries.

Let's start with RB19 vs RB20...
RB20 debuted with a V shape sidepod radiator arrangement compared to RB19 slanted layout.
RB19 top
RB20 middle
Image
Image

They also introduced a Mercedes style “shoulder cannon” which Mercedes abandoned at the start of 2024 and Redbull in second half of 2024. More on this later.
Image

With RB21, Red Bull has reverted to a more RB19 like slanted radiator layout, aligning the radiators more diagonally along the lower sidepod plane. This creates a smoother flow path from inlet to outlet, reducing internal pressure build up and flow separation potential.
Image

In Saudi Arabia 2025, they also modified the central cooling configuration, moving from a horizontally stacked central core to a canted (angled) heat exchanger, again following RB19’s more inertial flow friendly setup.


RB19 for comparison..
Image

These shifts in layout aren’t superficial... They deeply affect internal duct efficiency and mass flow rate through radiators not to mention the thermal boundary layer development inside the sidepod.

Why It Matters?

In the RB20, the V radiators likely introduced non linearities in the internal flow behavior under yaw and pitch, possibly causing local flow detachment, swirl pockets, or thermal stratification that was not adequately captured in CFD or wind tunnel testing especially if internal flows were simplified in RANS or preconditioned for correlation with experimental rigs.

This would explain why sim and tunnel data looked fine, as Helmut Marko and Horner admitted. But on track, the car responded non-linearly to setup changes, particularly in transitional phases and under thermal load.

With all this, the correlation issue may not stem from wind tunnel to track deltas on the external aero, but from inaccurate modeling of internal aero thermal interactions, especially under dynamic conditions like crosswinds or changing corner speeds.

Internal ducting is often modeled using simplified flow proxies or idealized flow boundaries in RANS CFD and 60% scale tunnel testing. The compressible flow behavior, thermal gradients, and swirl in internal ducts aren’t always captured accurately. If that's not enough, Wind tunnels typically use isothermal models or neglect multi-phase heat transfer in ducts, underestimating losses and recirculation effects.

Despite its strengths, Even DES struggles in internal aero scenarios unless significantly extended or combined with Conjugate Heat Transfer (CHT) models.

If I had to guess, Red Bull likely relied on DES for external aero but treated internal flow with more simplified approaches, perhaps steady RANS or a decoupled thermal map. If the internal changes in RB20/21 introduced new vortex breakdown points, unstable separation zones, or thermal interference, these may...
1) Pass tunnel tests due to lower fidelity.
2) Look clean in sim data.
3) Completely misbehave on track, especially at high loads, yaw, or over bumps.

Redbull's alternatives are DES + CHT or a wall modeled LES...$$$

Red Bull’s performance uptick in Jeddah coincided with a clear step back toward RB19’s internal configuration. While it’s true that Jeddah naturally suits Red Bull’s general balance philosophy, the timing of the internal architecture revisions and their immediate effect on correlation confidence suggests a deeper link.

As we’ve seen historically (Mercedes 2022–23), internal flow mismanagement can lead to unpredictable aerodynamic balance shifts, particularly when thermal load and ride height vary lap to lap. Red Bull may have briefly walked into a similar trap where the packaging gains introduced new internal flow inefficiencies that the tunnel and sim couldn’t replicate with sufficient fidelity.

In my view RB21 appears to be regaining performance as it regresses to RB19 era internal flow designs, implying that the core of the correlation issue was never about floor edge development or external surface aero, but rather about the flow conditioning inside the chassis and sidepods, especially in how it integrates with rear downforce structures.
I learn from the mistakes of people who take my advice...

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lio007
320
Joined: 28 Jan 2013, 23:03
Location: Austria

Re: Red Bull RB21

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Silent Storm wrote:
21 Apr 2025, 18:51
...
Great post.
Can anybody confirm if the comparison pic from the X-"tweet" is from Saudi Arabia?
The top one is supposed to be the new-RB21, but is the RW really the one used last weekend?

Edit: it's safe to say just the lower one is the RB21 in the initial cooling configuration. The top might be RB19. On the inside of the RWEP they have the RedBull Cola instead of Mobil1 sticker this year.
Last edited by lio007 on 21 Apr 2025, 21:26, edited 1 time in total.

Silent Storm
Silent Storm
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Joined: 02 Feb 2015, 18:42

Re: Red Bull RB21

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lio007 wrote:
21 Apr 2025, 20:37
Silent Storm wrote:
21 Apr 2025, 18:51
...
Great post.
Can anybody confirm if the comparison pic from the X-"tweet" is from Saudi Arabia?
The top one is supposed to be the RB21, but is the RW really the one used last weekend?
Tried to search but couldn't find more pics, Whether the central cooler is modified or not, rest of the theory tracks till it won't :D
I learn from the mistakes of people who take my advice...

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lio007
320
Joined: 28 Jan 2013, 23:03
Location: Austria

Re: Red Bull RB21

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Silent Storm wrote:
21 Apr 2025, 21:23
lio007 wrote:
21 Apr 2025, 20:37
Silent Storm wrote:
21 Apr 2025, 18:51
...
Great post.
Can anybody confirm if the comparison pic from the X-"tweet" is from Saudi Arabia?
The top one is supposed to be the RB21, but is the RW really the one used last weekend?
Tried to search but couldn't find more pics, Whether the central cooler is modified or not, rest of the theory tracks till it won't :D
For sure!

In terms of the pic, see the edit in my previous post.

Silent Storm
Silent Storm
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Joined: 02 Feb 2015, 18:42

Re: Red Bull RB21

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Correction : Okay, so the picture above of the central radiator is of racing bulls not the RB21. The person who tweeted it used racing bulls picture instead of Redbull.

Apologies for the error, I should have checked racing bulls gallery as well. Having said that, rest of the theory is still sound as they did move from cannons to normal, V radiator to slanted radiator and we will see in Imola if third change was made or not on RB21 that moved weight distribution of the car.
I learn from the mistakes of people who take my advice...