2025 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

[AR3-GP]

Here is the video an interesting watch who knows how accurate or feasible it is,

Maybe, maybe not, but it is an interesting an idea. This kind of “switching” system (or other implementations of it) would explain why the MCL-39 doesn’t have the compromises of the RB19 and the SF-24 which were bad qualifying cars because they didn’t heat the tires up quickly enough for 1 lap pace. The drivers had always complained over the radio about the tires being cold and there were media reports about it. This is the major difference I see to how the Mclaren operates.

I’m confused though because carbon fiber is not a good conductor of heat.

He mentioined in part 1 of the video where he didn't really go into details of his ideas Red Bull using thermal cameras on the drums of teams using pit stops. The McLarens were cooler than every other team. I'm aware of them using the thermal cameras this weekend but though it was monitoring the tyres themselves not the cake tin.


If that is true than its suggesting something is going on there. And seems he is talking from an area of expertise in phase changing materials.

Upon further review, I stand corrected. Carbon fiber can in fact be made into a good thermal conductor by introducing additives and changing the fiber orientation. So it is possible to have a significant transfer of heat from the wheel rim, across the cake tin cover, and into the air which is exhausted from the brake tin. Turbulent air flows inside the cake tin layers would also increase the ability to transfer the heat from surface of the carbon tin into the airflow and out of the duct exits, while introducing additional drag.

As I’ve repeated, I’m convinced this is a connection to why Mclaren has no straight line speed with the DRS. They are regularly 6-7 km/h down on the others. This is a lot of energy at top speed. Some of it may be due to downforce, but not all of it. They had a much smaller rear wing than Red Bull. Their tire cooling measures consume flow energy and this is not affected by opening the DRS flap. I think that’s why they have been pursuing mini-drs, flexible wings, and so on to reduce drag. It was a stated priority of Stella in the pre-season.

[langedweil]

Here is the video an interesting watch who knows how accurate or feasible it is,

Thnx, very interesting idea indeed !
I do agree with AR3-GP that the McL drag somehow feels to be a result/side effect.
I'm no aerodynamicist by any means, so can't say anything smart or clever on that. But still .. it's pretty noticable.
Thet extreme traction out of corners, you guys reckon that's related to better state of the tires .. or just PU grunt combined with overal good mechanical grip ?

If I were RB I'd hire the guy to elaborate a little bit more while getting rid of his studentdebt ..

[AR3-GP]

The longer I think about it,the more I feel that Mclarens pace advantage is mostly because they cool the tires better, and not neccesarily because they have more downforce or more stable downforce (Toto Wolff said this too). The TD isn’t going to change much. They may be slightly more limited with the aero balance (possible slightly more complaints from drivers about balance) but the advantage of cooler tires is worth a lot more. Until Red Bull can replicate it, nothing will change.

Andrea Stella even gives it away when he said the big advantage this year is their “cooling system”. Read between the lines.

All teams need to develop their own solutions because it will also work in 2026.

If auto racer wasn’t lying, and Red Bull aren’t just keeping their cards close, then Red Bull could have their first implementation for one of the coming races.

Red Bull’s communication strategy is all over the shop. Marko says one thing (more parts for Imola), Horner says another (“no upgrades”) and Monaghan says another. Then you have the Red Bull people who said no floor for Miami. At the beginning both Red Bull and Max have spoken about the tire temperature problem so I do believe a first “attempt” even if a hack job will arrive this year. It’s one of the only 2 things they said they are working on this year (balance and tire degradation).

Marko is a bit more up and down this year with the good days and bad days, so I wouldn’t take what he said at full face value.

Anything is possible for Imola. If it was a matter of missing lots of downforce, they would be screwed, but if they can successfully cool the tires more, a lot will change quite suddenly. I am no longer thinking about Spain. It’s the day that they can cool the tires more that will change everything.

[Emag]

Interesting idea. There is a thermal recovery time that needs to be considered with such a solution though. If you're frequently on the brakes and pumping heat into the system, the PCM will not have enough time to cool down and revert, and f1 carbon brakes can get really damn hot on peak loads. It feels like eventually, the continuos braking will render the PCM useless for it's intended purpose, essentially ending up with dead weight on the rear.

Also, do we know how much "freedom" there is to incorporate this on the inside of the cake tins?

If it turns out to be this, I really hope we learn more about how they made it work, because there are many challenges and limitations that one needs to navigate in order to feasibly use this as an "active" cooling solution.

[AR3-GP]

Interesting idea. There is a thermal recovery time that needs to be considered with such a solution though. If you're frequently on the brakes and pumping heat into the system, the PCM will not have enough time to cool down and revert, and f1 carbon brakes can get really damn hot on peak loads. It feels like eventually, the continuos braking will render the PCM useless for it's intended purpose, essentially ending up with dead weight on the rear.

Also, do we know how much "freedom" there is to incorporate this on the inside of the cake tins?

If it turns out to be this, I really hope we learn more about how they made it work, because there are many challenges and limitations that one needs to navigate in order to feasibly use this as an "active" cooling solution.

Worthy of a split topic, but since we’re here, I’ll leave that to the mods…

I don’t think the system requires the switch to open and close repeatedly during a stint or from corner to corner. You would just want to start in a state with cold tires and cold brakes where brake disc heat is used to heat up the tires (fast tire warmup) and then once the tire is heated, you can switch to rim cooling mode (flow reversal). The thermal saturation would be desired because it would allow the system to stay in the rim cooling mode.

The brake duct inlet and outlet blanking would allow Mclaren to control the rim cooling “power” and thus the equilibrium tire temperature.

Also the rear brakes are much smaller than the front brakes, not only because brake bias is forwards, but also because of harvesting on the rear axle through the drive shaft. It reduces the amount of energy that the rear brake disc needs to dissipate as heat. You have this big wide 18” wheel rim at the rear, and considerably less energy actually being dissipated within compared to the fronts. It’s no wonder that someone thought this volume could be used to do something more innovative.

[TimW]

...... Carbon fiber can in fact be made into a good thermal conductor by introducing additives and changing the fiber orientation.

Not just good, pitch based ultra high modulus fibre can be an excellent conductor of heat, (much) better than e.g aluminium. With the caveat that it is directional.

https://www.ngfworld.com/en/fiber/high_ ... ivity.html

(So note that the 1200 W/mK is just the fibre, in fibre direction. Making a composite out of it will lower values a lot, but you can still exceed metals, and at much lower weight)

[AR3-GP]

...... Carbon fiber can in fact be made into a good thermal conductor by introducing additives and changing the fiber orientation.

Not just good, pitch based ultra high modulus fibre can be an excellent conductor of heat, (much) better than e.g aluminium. With the caveat that it is directional.

https://www.ngfworld.com/en/fiber/high_ ... ivity.html

(So note that the 1200 W/mK is just the fibre, in fibre direction. Making a composite out of it will lower values a lot, but you can still exceed metals, and at much lower weight)

Great insight, thank you.

[AR3-GP]

““Just struggling a lot with the brakes again the whole weekend,” he said. “So, yeah, very inconsistent. That’s a bit of a problem.””

I’m wondering if Max’s “brake problems” in the last few weeks are not connected to Red Bull’s tire cooling experiments….

[Watto]

““Just struggling a lot with the brakes again the whole weekend,” he said. “So, yeah, very inconsistent. That’s a bit of a problem.””


I’m wondering if Max’s “brake problems” in the last few weeks are not connected to Red Bull’s tire cooling experiments….

A few thoughts too, and hopefully he does a follow up video on phase change material he mentioned.

But thinking last year on RBR claims of water inside the tyre of the McLaren. This wouldn't play in with the phase change material would it. Obviously not as what ever material changing to water inside the brake drums, but in the comments someone mentions in its simples form ice melting solid to liquid feeling water cool, but part of this wouldn't be a side effect of what ever materials they are using could it.

[AR3-GP]

A clever air circulation. Stella also denies that her exceptionally good tire management in the race has nothing to do with the problems that sometimes make it difficult for drivers to set the perfect lap in qualifying. "We don't pay a price per lap for caring for the tires better than others. It's no problem for us to get the tires into their working window quickly." In qualifying, drivers are more likely to complain about a lack of feel for the front axle.

The opinion is now gaining ground in the scene that the engineers in Woking have found a particularly clever solution for circulating air in the brake ventilation drums, keeping the brakes hot while keeping the tires cool. The external shape of the drums is standardized. Inside, you have complete freedom. You're not allowed to install any explicit cooling elements, but you're not restricted in the choice of materials.

An insider speculates: "Perhaps they circulate the air in such a way that it stays cool in the crucial areas and shield the heat through the use of certain materials." Chief Technical Officer Rob Marshall is said to be the father of the system. He has been carrying the concept around with him for years, but has only now made it work. That would be bitter for Red Bull. Marshall was at Red Bull for 17 years before moving to McLaren in early 2024.

Stella also made an interesting statement. "Even when it gets hot, our car stays cool. We've developed a very efficient cooling system." This also affects tire temperatures. If the car as a whole gets too hot, it radiates to the tires. Stella's statement also explains why the McLaren is near the back in terms of top speed. More cooling reduces efficiency.

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... peraturen/

We have hit the mark with these theories in my opinion.

An insider speculates: "Perhaps they circulate the air in such a way that it stays cool in the crucial areas and shield the heat through the use of certain materials.

@TimW, to your point about the heat transfer being anisotropic in the fibre, that could certainly create an opportunity for exploitation. Shield heat in some areas and transfer it in other areas based on the orientation of the fibres inside the resin.

It was written elsewhere, that it's something which carries over to 2026, so this is something that all teams must invest in and understand or they will be behind Mclaren in 2026.

I have requested that these post be moved to a separate thread.

[venkyhere]

IF Rob Marshall is the master mind behind keeping these tyre temps under control and pitched his ideas to Red Bull ..

If that were the case, there would at least be the slightest idea of what is happening within or around those rears. I mean direction-wise.
That would be the base source of the tirewater circus, something that kinda acts like a mini-airco with thermostat.
Brilliant nonetheless ... hats off

I saw B Sport had a video which suggests use of bimetallic strips and reversal of airflow in the wheel hub assembly IIRC.

Oops. I just posted the same idea in the McLaren threads. People are going to think I copied from this video. Honestly, I didn't.

[langedweil]

Tonight I just ran into the really interesting subject of magnetocaloric cooling that kind of touches phase changing.
Even though it's currently in early stages, this is what Grok has to say about it ..

In principle, magnetocaloric cooling could be used in a racecar braking system to manage tire temperatures, but there are significant practical and engineering challenges that make it unlikely to be feasible with current technology. Here’s a breakdown:

Magnetocaloric Cooling Basics
• Magnetocaloric effect (MCE): Certain materials heat up when magnetized and cool down when demagnetized, especially near their Curie temperature.
• Cooling mechanism: A magnetocaloric system requires strong magnetic fields, cycling of those fields, and an effective heat exchange system.

Why It Could Be Interesting
• Precise temperature control: In racing, maintaining optimal tire temperature is critical for grip and performance.
• Localized cooling: A magnetocaloric system might offer a compact, targeted alternative to traditional liquid cooling systems or brake ducting.
• No moving fluids: In theory, this reduces some mechanical complexity (but not overall system complexity).

Why It’s Not Yet Practical
1. Size and Weight Constraints: Magnetocaloric systems require strong magnets (often superconducting or rare-earth-based), which are heavy and bulky—bad for racecars where weight and space are at a premium.
2. Thermal Response Time: The system would need to respond almost instantly to rapid changes in braking energy and heat. Magnetocaloric systems currently don’t offer the fast thermal cycling needed in racing conditions.
3. Operating Temperature Range: MCE materials often work best near specific temperatures (around their Curie point). Brake temperatures in racing can exceed 800°C, far above the effective range of known MCE materials.
4. Complexity and Cost: The added system complexity might not be justified compared to highly optimized conventional cooling (e.g., carbon-ceramic brakes, active airflow, thermal blankets, etc.).

Conclusion

While it’s an intriguing concept theoretically, magnetocaloric cooling is not currently suitable for racecar braking systems. However, it might have niche future potential in motorsports or aerospace once the technology becomes more compact, efficient, and responsive.

So while it definately seems a nothingburger at the moment, it's appears to be a real nice development.

[Farnborough]

The longer I think about it,the more I feel that Mclarens pace advantage is mostly because they cool the tires better, and not neccesarily because they have more downforce or more stable downforce (Toto Wolff said this too). The TD isn’t going to change much. They may be slightly more limited with the aero balance (possible slightly more complaints from drivers about balance) but the advantage of cooler tires is worth a lot more. Until Red Bull can replicate it, nothing will change.

Andrea Stella even gives it away when he said the big advantage this year is their “cooling system”. Read between the lines.

All teams need to develop their own solutions because it will also work in 2026.

If auto racer wasn’t lying, and Red Bull aren’t just keeping their cards close, then Red Bull could have their first implementation for one of the coming races.

Red Bull’s communication strategy is all over the shop. Marko says one thing (more parts for Imola), Horner says another (“no upgrades”) and Monaghan says another. Then you have the Red Bull people who said no floor for Miami. At the beginning both Red Bull and Max have spoken about the tire temperature problem so I do believe a first “attempt” even if a hack job will arrive this year. It’s one of the only 2 things they said they are working on this year (balance and tire degradation).

Marko is a bit more up and down this year with the good days and bad days, so I wouldn’t take what he said at full face value.

Anything is possible for Imola. If it was a matter of missing lots of downforce, they would be screwed, but if they can successfully cool the tires more, a lot will change quite suddenly. I am no longer thinking about Spain. It’s the day that they can cool the tires more that will change everything.

That thought, by extension, is the whole of F1 ..... how the tire is "presented" to the track surface is the entirety of the challenge. Heat, load, pace, angle, driver input, consistency, everything is about this and how to facilitate just that one interaction. Those team which understand this better will be competitive.

Remember 2022 at Bahrain, the saga McL had with, front only ? brake ducting "flowing backwards" causing a rushed manufacturing of contingency parts to run effectively (although without much pace at that point) at which point were we seeing the genesis of this approach?

The rears, as pointed out above are relatively small in friction brakes, making absolute heat "mass" less effective. Listening to JP & MV comms during Q the regeneration is maximised in prep laps to Q pace lap, then regeneration OFF for just pure deployment during that Q lap. Rear disc will be more used.

In RB 21 thread there's discussion of current observable installation, which appears already multi layered in build up from caliper and disc cooling separated from flow internal to that carbon shield for heat management.
It firstly doesn't look to be a simple flooded chamber with ducted "pressure" into and excess expelled to inner face at tire rear. Much more labyrinth in it's separated flow strategy and careful exposure of that flow to each of the different material surfaces, which looks primarily aimed at efficiency of heat transfer without letting that escape towards rear rim interior.

McL initial pace of any stint doesn't suggest quick warm up, more that effective shield of heat from brakes is there to avoid saturation from that origin. Which could play out at stint end, and could indicate this to be the case by being relatively conservative in absolute pace for Q but superiority taken as tires come up to peak while not overshooting. In other words, no "switch" present, but with maximum capacity to control peak heat being the result.

What are the rules around "switching" brake cooling on the fly ? Static changes are normal and always have been, but movement during race I'm not so sure. Can anyone add tangible info on this ?

[avantman]

McL initial pace of any stint doesn't suggest quick warm

That's very far from the truth. They are able to go faster right away switching to new set of tires, even hard one. Here is the overlay of lap 31, first uninterrupted lap of Piastri after his stop on lap 29.

You can see he is just faster pretty much all the way through the lap, but the biggest damage is done in low speed corners. It varies a bit from lap to lap, on some laps Max matches him on the straights, but most times he loses even there and can only match Oscar though high speed section on S1.
Here is lap 35, first full lap after another interruption and another VSC period, where one might think his tires would cool down a bit. Not at all. Oscar set his fastest lap of the race there.



Mclaren is just faster. This advantage being so early in the stint on hard tires(much higher operational temperatures than medium let alone soft) quite obviously has nothing to do with tire overheating on other cars and not overheating on the Mclaren. I do not deny their vastly superior tire management, but that was their biggest strength last year, whereas quite often they were not even the outright fastest in the first stint early on in the race fueled for the race distance, and their advantage became only visible towards the end of first stint and grew bigger the longer the race went. This year they have the advantage right away from the get go wherever they go, literally everywhere.
ANd you can also see, relative cornering speed in qualifying has barely anything to do with that during the race. We cannot see anywhere on these graphs that Max had more downforce, as many thought after the quali. He might have had more downforce in quali mode, but in race mode Mclaren has more. Downforce or shall we say grip. Also quite often Oscar lifts off the throttle much earlier coming into heavy braking zone in T1 and T17. That is why I assume Mclaren might indeed carry less fuel, if not always then surely in some races, which of course would make cornering advantage even bigger, especially in low speed - the biggest advantage they have. That's obviously the easiest way to save fuel, but you can see he still gains a lot of time though those corners. Consistently at least 0.15s in T1 and 0.2s or more in T17 despite coming off the throttle much earlier.

[avantman]

Here is lap 49, just for reference. Nothing changes essentially. Overall advantage was even smaller, just 6 tenths, rather than 8.