Petition to FIA - 2026 rules canceled, V10s in 2028

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AR3-GP
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Re: Petition to FIA - 2026 rules canceled, V10s in 2028

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We have seen this before. The 2026 F1 PU regulations are the 2014-2019 LMP1 PU regulations where they were also permitted to use a large proportion of electric power. In that championship, the LMP2 cars could have a greater top speed than the LMP1 cars when the LMP1 cars ran out of energy on the circuits with longer straights like Le Mans, but the LMP1 cars had breathtaking acceleration compared to the LMP2 cars because electric power means incredible torque. Like shot out of a cannon. This is something that the F1 drivers have not yet been able to communicate because the simulator cannot make you feel that acceleration.

Image

From a spectators point of view, there is no difference to the racing. You don't notice that cars have run out of energy. My grip with the regulations as they stand is that is becomes less and less about driving and racing, and more about energy management games like Formula E.
It doesn't turn.

Tommy Cookers
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Re: Petition to FIA - 2026 rules canceled, V10s in 2028

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AR3-GP wrote:
18 Apr 2025, 05:05
... the LMP1 cars had breathtaking acceleration compared to the LMP2 cars because electric power means incredible torque. Like shot out of a cannon ....
the regulations .... more about energy management games like Formula E.
well ....
though it will always be more laptime-efficient for stored energy to be deployed early on the straight ...
isn't it the ICE power added to electrical power that means 'incredible torque' ?
the 120 or 350 kW power limits cap MGU-K torque ie the MGU-K power falls with rpm when rpm is below about 50%

in motorsport energy recovery and storage is only permitted if done electrically (not mechanically as Williams did)
but ironically, mechanical storage always was and is a vital and ever-increasing element in the public electrical supply

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coaster
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Re: Petition to FIA - 2026 rules canceled, V10s in 2028

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The goose is already cooked, V6 stays.
V10 would make a great change for indycar, alchohol fueled, 3.3 litre based on the XFE internal dimensions with steel valvesprings.

KimiRai
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Re: Petition to FIA - 2026 rules canceled, V10s in 2028

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Formula 1 chiefs will discuss with teams next week the idea of a significant change to the 2026 engine rules aimed at heading off fears about cars repeatedly running out of energy, The Race can reveal.

The idea would mean F1 moves away in races from the 50/50 power split between the internal combustion engine and battery that has been a core principle of the new regulations.

As work continues behind the scenes on the design of the all-new turbo hybrid power units, worries have been repeatedly aired about the possibility of them having a bad impact on the racing.

The biggest concern is that there will not be enough harvesting to allow for as much battery deployment as teams would like.

For some power-sensitive tracks such as Monza, there have been worries that cars could run out of energy halfway down the straight - providing not just a poor spectacle but huge frustrations for drivers too.

Efforts have been made by the FIA to tweak the rules and minimise the prospect of cars running out of energy too early, which includes what is known as a 'turn down ramp rate' that prevents teams burning all their energy too quickly coming out of a corner.

Instead, power can only be reduced gradually, which effectively forces teams to stretch their use of energy deployment further along a straight.

While some manufacturers believe the current regulations are enough to prevent problems at most tracks, not everyone is convinced - and the FIA has been conducting further analysis of the situation.

The Race has learned that, as part of a push to minimise the risk of problems in races, a proposal has been put forward for discussion at next week's F1 Commission meeting to introduce a major change to the regulations.

While the 50/50 power split between the ICE and battery will remain in place for qualifying, an idea has been tabled for a major shift for the races.

The proposal is that battery power deployment be reduced from the current 350kW down to 200kW for races. This will shift the ICE/battery power ratio from 50/50 to 64/36. The split is 85/15 in the current F1 regulations.
https://www.the-race.com/formula-1/f1-c ... gine-plan/
Last edited by KimiRai on 24 Apr 2025, 23:20, edited 1 time in total.

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McLarenHonda
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Re: Petition to FIA - 2026 rules canceled, V10s in 2028

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They’re talking of going to a V8! No, just no!

The V8s were by far the worst engines of F1! Barely reaching 750hp, no torque, just small dimensions! If we’re going to ditch the V6T then let’s go to V10s (or V12s God)! Yeah they’re big and heavier but they’ve got exactly what formula 1 needs! Character and power!

Also I don’t exactly understand why some manufacturers are against the change! Since we’re ditching the MGU-H there’s really no difference between any engine format! It’s exactly the same like 2009-2013 but with more KERS power…

Ferry
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Re: Petition to FIA - 2026 rules canceled, V10s in 2028

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McLarenHonda wrote:
23 Apr 2025, 09:30
Yeah they’re big and heavier but they’ve got exactly what formula 1 needs! Character and power!
I would choose power over character any day. If anyone wants character and sound over power, be my guest. Just don't force it on everone. Formula 1 is the pinnacle of MOTORsport. Don't dumb it down. V8s belongs to vans.. :twisted:

KimiRai
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Re: Petition to FIA - 2026 rules canceled, V10s in 2028

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Formula 1 bosses have agreed in principle to a mechanism that would allow engine manufacturers facing a performance shortfall under next year's new rules to catch up.

But there was no agreement at a meeting of the F1 Commission on Thursday on a proposal to cut the amount of electrical energy permitted in races.

That had been tabled as a means of preventing cars running out of electrical deployment down the straights at certain circuits.

Both ideas will be discussed at future meetings of the F1 power-unit manufacturers.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/ar ... qvk9vyly1o

Greg Locock
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Re: Petition to FIA - 2026 rules canceled, V10s in 2028

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"I would choose power over character any day. " Given that the cars are slowed down deliberately in various ways pursuing power for the sake of it seems a bit daft.

AR3-GP
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Re: Petition to FIA - 2026 rules canceled, V10s in 2028

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I pity the new generation of Formula 1 drivers as the sport moves further and further away from the sprint racing of their idols growing up. The energy wars starting next year will be quite a difference to Formula 2, and even just this season of Formula 1. It's closer to Formula E than Formula 1. That is not a good thing.
It doesn't turn.

TeamKoolGreen
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Re: Petition to FIA - 2026 rules canceled, V10s in 2028

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McLarenHonda wrote:
23 Apr 2025, 09:30
They’re talking of going to a V8! No, just no!

The V8s were by far the worst engines of F1! Barely reaching 750hp, no torque, just small dimensions! If we’re going to ditch the V6T then let’s go to V10s (or V12s God)! Yeah they’re big and heavier but they’ve got exactly what formula 1 needs! Character and power!

Also I don’t exactly understand why some manufacturers are against the change! Since we’re ditching the MGU-H there’s really no difference between any engine format! It’s exactly the same like 2009-2013 but with more KERS power…
If I'm not mistaken , every single team has a V8 in other programs except Red Bull which has a V10. But they're going with Ford who has V8s so V8 makes sense. They can make them higher revving and more powerful. I don't recall anyone having a problem with the V8's

KimiRai
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Re: Petition to FIA - 2026 rules canceled, V10s in 2028

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Nicolas Carpentiers
Nearly €300 a litre for F1 in 2026!

As F1 prepares to switch to sustainable fuels in 2026, teams are fearing soaring costs.

Formula 1 teams are preparing to face a spike in fuel costs in 2026, which one team headmaster has described as a ‘ridiculous escalation’. The reason: the introduction of new 100% sustainable fuels, the price of which could, according to some estimates, increase tenfold and exceed 300 dollars (270 euros) a litre.

Sustainable petrol...

As work progresses on the development of these fuels with a view to their introduction in two seasons' time, the initial budget projections are beginning to raise serious concerns in the paddock. Recent discussions at the F1 Commission in Geneva highlighted the scale of the problem, with a number of speakers denouncing the potential cost of new-generation fuels, which is much higher than that currently in use.

... but a significant budgetary impact

Over a full season of 24 Grands Prix, the extra cost of green petrol could reach between $1.9 and $2.4 million (€1.7 and €2.1 million), based on an estimated consumption of $80,000 to $100,000 per weekend. This figure would be even higher for teams that do not benefit from a technical partnership with an official supplier, and who will therefore have to negotiate their contracts without the advantages of direct support, not to mention the sporting consequences given the key role of petrol in engine performance.

The teams can nevertheless count on a slight cushion: the cost of petrol will not be included in the budget ceiling from 2026 onwards, which will give them some room for manoeuvre. This does not mean, however, that the expense will go unnoticed in the financial statements, as the gap with current levels is so significant.

Faced with this prospect, several teams are calling for a reform of the system. One of the most critical team directors described the situation as ‘ridiculous’, while supporting the efforts being made to re-establish a more sustainable framework in the medium term.

The FIA has taken note of these concerns. While it has no plans to review the regulations for 2026, it intends to work with the teams and suppliers to find solutions from 2027. Among the avenues mentioned is the idea of standardising some of the components of sustainable petrol, while leaving a limited area for research and development, in order to contain costs without sacrificing technological competitiveness.
https://f1i.autojournal.fr/infos/inflat ... 1-en-2026/

Hoffman900
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Re: Petition to FIA - 2026 rules canceled, V10s in 2028

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In other series with “sustainable fuels”, oil dilution has proven to be a big problem, thus requiring more frequent oil changes as well.

These fuels have compounds that don’t readily combust, and work their way past the piston rings. It’s a well known issue.

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coaster
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Re: Petition to FIA - 2026 rules canceled, V10s in 2028

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[/quote]
If I'm not mistaken , every single team has a V8 in other programs except Red Bull which has a V10. But they're going with Ford who has V8s so V8 makes sense. They can make them higher revving and more powerful. I don't recall anyone having a problem with the V8's
[/quote]
Technically the 'Ford' or 'Jaguar' (then owned by Ford) was Cosworth with a label on the rocker covers, all of the combustion chamber research and reciprocating mass weight reduction (to name a few) designs would all be owned by cosworth.

Hoffman900
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Re: Petition to FIA - 2026 rules canceled, V10s in 2028

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coaster wrote:
11 May 2025, 00:44
If I'm not mistaken , every single team has a V8 in other programs except Red Bull which has a V10. But they're going with Ford who has V8s so V8 makes sense. They can make them higher revving and more powerful. I don't recall anyone having a problem with the V8's
[/quote]
Technically the 'Ford' or 'Jaguar' (then owned by Ford) was Cosworth with a label on the rocker covers, all of the combustion chamber research and reciprocating mass weight reduction (to name a few) designs would all be owned by cosworth.
[/quote]

It depends. Ford owned Cosworth for a bit (1998-2004). So some of the V10 IP might still be owned by Ford. Not entirely sure. Granted that would be 20yo technology / know-how by now.

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coaster
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Re: Petition to FIA - 2026 rules canceled, V10s in 2028

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I think you might be right, BrianG had fully reversed engineered the TJ V10 and had promised a book to be released.
That was over 10 years ago now, something has blocked his progress and I'm guessing that would be ford blocking the publication.