Nice.
What are they saying SSJ4?
alonso saying the silverstone updates are upgrades in terms of performance and we will have a 'significant' update for SPA. Also said whenever this years car is mentioned Newey goes to his office and mentioned that he hasn't worked on it. so nothing new in that sense, just giving some advice.
You said..diffuser wrote: ↑07 Jul 2025, 19:30There is evidence with Hulk of what would happen if they pitted early, we don't need your calculations. The point isn't "was it possible"?. The question how do you know in advance how it's gonna play out?Bisonas wrote: ↑07 Jul 2025, 00:47Stroll pitted under VSC and the moment he pitted was 15.8s behind the leader in 11th position.diffuser wrote: ↑06 Jul 2025, 23:03
It was never an option to pit Alonso early on and put him on slicks. It would be suicide for Alonso to give up 8 positions to put on slicks. 99 times out of 100, that's the wrong play. Who in their right mind would have pitted from Alonso from 6th to come out 14th?
Like I said, it was only an option for Lance because AntMan was on slicks and was close to 30 seconds behind Lance. This allowed Lance to pit, still come out ahead of Antman, in clean air and therfore not have to pass anyone.
(Alonso was 8.3s behind the leader in 6th at that time)
Stroll came out of the pits, 28.2s behind the leader in 12th position while the race was still under VSC.
He lost approximately 12.4s to the leader while pitting under VSC.
Now if we add those 12.4s to ALO 8.3s gap to the leader, ALO would have come out more or less around 20.7s behind the leader. That would have putted him very very comfortably in the same gap/slot Stroll ended up, at 12th position, 3,5s behind Ocon and he would have been at an even better position because he would have been 7-8 seconds closer to the leader compare to where Stroll came out.
Now 3 laps later Stroll came in for inters while he was just 17.8s from the leader (piastri now) at 8th position having gained massively in his 3 laps on soft. Especially in S2 he was gaining enormously on ALL the inters runners.
After (the leader) PIA and VES at 2nd place pitted for fresh inters, VES at second place was 9s from the lead and stroll was 15s from the lead.
I don't want to shock you but all my calculations/emulations show me, that if Alonso was given Strolls exact strategy and the exact same pit stop timings, after everybody was pitted for inters, ALO would have been running at 2nd place behind PIA and in front of VES.
of course ALO presence in that scenario probably would have triggered VES and NOR to think about how to cover ALO strategy, and maybe, who knows we had a completely different sequence of events.
I urge everyone to run the numbers on live timing to verify what i am saying.
So yea, it was pretty much an option for ALO also to pit for slicks, but as i have stated in my previous post, it was a riskier option for Alonso because he had more to lose if they didn't manage to get the pitstops timings correctly.
Kudos to them though because regarding Stroll they did manage to execute a very difficult (to get it 100% right) strategy, with perfection.
What if it doesn't rain? What if there is no safety car? What if the VSR last another 3 laps? What if the rain started 3 laps before? What if someone spins, goes off, and the race red flagged? Really nice for you to be sitting here on Monday morning with the fact that it did rain when it rained. It has happened often before at Silverstone where they thought it would rain and it didn't or they thought it would rain harder and it didn't. Then you're stuck both Stroll and Alonso sitting out of the points. If you don't understand that F1 teams take on alot of risk when they're out of the points and do the opposite when in the points. I'm not sure what to tell you.
Both Mercs and LeClerc got it wrong and they finished behind Alonso. On that first stop, of the top 9 cars, they all did the same thing except Hulk. So they all got it wrong, in your opinion. The strategy guys have seconds to make decisions.
If you don't understand that F1 teams take on alot of risk only when they're out of the points, I don't know what to tell you. That's just the way it is.
Sorry if I got too excited in my response. I wasn't trying to talk down to you just make a point.Bisonas wrote: ↑08 Jul 2025, 23:18You said..diffuser wrote: ↑07 Jul 2025, 19:30There is evidence with Hulk of what would happen if they pitted early, we don't need your calculations. The point isn't "was it possible"?. The question how do you know in advance how it's gonna play out?Bisonas wrote: ↑07 Jul 2025, 00:47
Stroll pitted under VSC and the moment he pitted was 15.8s behind the leader in 11th position.
(Alonso was 8.3s behind the leader in 6th at that time)
Stroll came out of the pits, 28.2s behind the leader in 12th position while the race was still under VSC.
He lost approximately 12.4s to the leader while pitting under VSC.
Now if we add those 12.4s to ALO 8.3s gap to the leader, ALO would have come out more or less around 20.7s behind the leader. That would have putted him very very comfortably in the same gap/slot Stroll ended up, at 12th position, 3,5s behind Ocon and he would have been at an even better position because he would have been 7-8 seconds closer to the leader compare to where Stroll came out.
Now 3 laps later Stroll came in for inters while he was just 17.8s from the leader (piastri now) at 8th position having gained massively in his 3 laps on soft. Especially in S2 he was gaining enormously on ALL the inters runners.
After (the leader) PIA and VES at 2nd place pitted for fresh inters, VES at second place was 9s from the lead and stroll was 15s from the lead.
I don't want to shock you but all my calculations/emulations show me, that if Alonso was given Strolls exact strategy and the exact same pit stop timings, after everybody was pitted for inters, ALO would have been running at 2nd place behind PIA and in front of VES.
of course ALO presence in that scenario probably would have triggered VES and NOR to think about how to cover ALO strategy, and maybe, who knows we had a completely different sequence of events.
I urge everyone to run the numbers on live timing to verify what i am saying.
So yea, it was pretty much an option for ALO also to pit for slicks, but as i have stated in my previous post, it was a riskier option for Alonso because he had more to lose if they didn't manage to get the pitstops timings correctly.
Kudos to them though because regarding Stroll they did manage to execute a very difficult (to get it 100% right) strategy, with perfection.
What if it doesn't rain? What if there is no safety car? What if the VSR last another 3 laps? What if the rain started 3 laps before? What if someone spins, goes off, and the race red flagged? Really nice for you to be sitting here on Monday morning with the fact that it did rain when it rained. It has happened often before at Silverstone where they thought it would rain and it didn't or they thought it would rain harder and it didn't. Then you're stuck both Stroll and Alonso sitting out of the points. If you don't understand that F1 teams take on alot of risk when they're out of the points and do the opposite when in the points. I'm not sure what to tell you.
Both Mercs and LeClerc got it wrong and they finished behind Alonso. On that first stop, of the top 9 cars, they all did the same thing except Hulk. So they all got it wrong, in your opinion. The strategy guys have seconds to make decisions.
If you don't understand that F1 teams take on alot of risk only when they're out of the points, I don't know what to tell you. That's just the way it is.
"We" don't need your calculations..
seriously ? You speak for everyone now?? .. lol
Say "I" don't need your calculations and stop referring to what others may or may not need.
You Said
"It was never an option to pit Alonso early on and put him on slicks. It would be suicide for Alonso to give up 8 positions to put on slicks. 99 times out of 100, that's the wrong play. Who in their right mind would have pitted from Alonso from 6th to come out 14th?
Like I said, it was only an option for Lance because AntMan was on slicks and was close to 30 seconds behind Lance. This allowed Lance to pit, still come out ahead of Antman, in clean air and therfore not have to pass anyone.?"
It's obvious that you actually needed my calculations mate because what you said was just wrong.
I demonstrated to you that he would come out at 12th just behind Ocon.
So It was always an option mate. Risky option, bad option, good option, doesn't matter, it was always an option.
You said
"The question how do you know in advance how it's gonna play out?
What if it doesn't rain? What if there is no safety car? What if the VSR last another 3 laps? What if the rain started 3 laps before? What if someone spins, goes off, and the race red flagged"
You are really hilarious mate.. really.. I have said it 3 times already in 3 different posts, that it was too risky and AMR wasn't comfortable to take that risk with Alonso. That's why they took it with the driver that had less to lose at that point. I have said it in 3 different posts and now you come here and repeat what i have said like you are saying it for the first time. Amazing...
and finally you said..
"If you don't understand that F1 teams take on alot of risk only when they're out of the points, I don't know what to tell you. That's just the way it is."
I get the feeling that you are the one that doesn't understand some things about how f1 teams work.
Teams that have a lot of money and their existence or progress is not connected or related to their classification in the standings, (like FER MCL RBR etc, or even AMR nowadays) can take what ever risk they want when ever they want, especially when they are not actually competing for the championship. So yea AMR on 8th position on the teams standings, can pretty much take what ever risk they like for this year. Why do you thinκ RUS and LEC pitted for slicks on the formation lap?? they saw that the leaders didn't pit, and yet.. they decide to pit.. why?? Because MER and FER just didn't mind to take the risk.. They wanted to do something different and they tried it. They took the risk.
So...
Start reading what other people are writing mate because you really don't make sense when you are just repeating what other have said a few posts back.
And control your arrogance a bit. This is an open F1 forum.
Calculations, analysis and discussions is what we do here.
If you don't like them, discard them or debate them, but don't speak on behalf of others.
Yeah, even for me as a layman is it obvious that they changed the airflow to the rear quite significantly with this update. Therefore I won't be surprised if they change something at the rear of the car as a further development (in the wind tunnel there was quite sure the modell inclusive the Spa update).
it seems to me that you always get too excited when someone is correcting you, or pointing out that you where wrong on something.diffuser wrote: ↑09 Jul 2025, 00:30Sorry if I got too excited in my response. I wasn't trying to talk down to you just make a point.Bisonas wrote: ↑08 Jul 2025, 23:18You said..diffuser wrote: ↑07 Jul 2025, 19:30
There is evidence with Hulk of what would happen if they pitted early, we don't need your calculations. The point isn't "was it possible"?. The question how do you know in advance how it's gonna play out?
What if it doesn't rain? What if there is no safety car? What if the VSR last another 3 laps? What if the rain started 3 laps before? What if someone spins, goes off, and the race red flagged? Really nice for you to be sitting here on Monday morning with the fact that it did rain when it rained. It has happened often before at Silverstone where they thought it would rain and it didn't or they thought it would rain harder and it didn't. Then you're stuck both Stroll and Alonso sitting out of the points. If you don't understand that F1 teams take on alot of risk when they're out of the points and do the opposite when in the points. I'm not sure what to tell you.
Both Mercs and LeClerc got it wrong and they finished behind Alonso. On that first stop, of the top 9 cars, they all did the same thing except Hulk. So they all got it wrong, in your opinion. The strategy guys have seconds to make decisions.
If you don't understand that F1 teams take on alot of risk only when they're out of the points, I don't know what to tell you. That's just the way it is.
"We" don't need your calculations..
seriously ? You speak for everyone now?? .. lol
Say "I" don't need your calculations and stop referring to what others may or may not need.
You Said
"It was never an option to pit Alonso early on and put him on slicks. It would be suicide for Alonso to give up 8 positions to put on slicks. 99 times out of 100, that's the wrong play. Who in their right mind would have pitted from Alonso from 6th to come out 14th?
Like I said, it was only an option for Lance because AntMan was on slicks and was close to 30 seconds behind Lance. This allowed Lance to pit, still come out ahead of Antman, in clean air and therfore not have to pass anyone.?"
It's obvious that you actually needed my calculations mate because what you said was just wrong.
I demonstrated to you that he would come out at 12th just behind Ocon.
So It was always an option mate. Risky option, bad option, good option, doesn't matter, it was always an option.
You said
"The question how do you know in advance how it's gonna play out?
What if it doesn't rain? What if there is no safety car? What if the VSR last another 3 laps? What if the rain started 3 laps before? What if someone spins, goes off, and the race red flagged"
You are really hilarious mate.. really.. I have said it 3 times already in 3 different posts, that it was too risky and AMR wasn't comfortable to take that risk with Alonso. That's why they took it with the driver that had less to lose at that point. I have said it in 3 different posts and now you come here and repeat what i have said like you are saying it for the first time. Amazing...
and finally you said..
"If you don't understand that F1 teams take on alot of risk only when they're out of the points, I don't know what to tell you. That's just the way it is."
I get the feeling that you are the one that doesn't understand some things about how f1 teams work.
Teams that have a lot of money and their existence or progress is not connected or related to their classification in the standings, (like FER MCL RBR etc, or even AMR nowadays) can take what ever risk they want when ever they want, especially when they are not actually competing for the championship. So yea AMR on 8th position on the teams standings, can pretty much take what ever risk they like for this year. Why do you thinκ RUS and LEC pitted for slicks on the formation lap?? they saw that the leaders didn't pit, and yet.. they decide to pit.. why?? Because MER and FER just didn't mind to take the risk.. They wanted to do something different and they tried it. They took the risk.
So...
Start reading what other people are writing mate because you really don't make sense when you are just repeating what other have said a few posts back.
And control your arrogance a bit. This is an open F1 forum.
Calculations, analysis and discussions is what we do here.
If you don't like them, discard them or debate them, but don't speak on behalf of others.
Here is what I wrote..
There is evidence with Hulk of what would happen if they pitted early, we don't need your calculations.
Attempting to say...
"Someone already stopped early in race and finished on the podium. So we know what would have happened.. it's not about that."
Sorry if I got too excited in my response. I wasn't trying to talk down to you just make a point.
but that it was too high risk for someone in 6th place. The case and point is nobody else but Hulk did it in the top 9.
Now you can disagree with me but I'll just take you back to the fact that 8 other cars were in similar situation and also didn't stop early. I will also use that to state that it means "that is the norm."
You can also say well, Hulk and Stroll made it work. To which I'll reply Leclerc, Antonelli and Russell each tried risky strategies, couldn't get it to work and finished behind Alonso.
totally agree
He rode on the coattails of a genius, a genius that left Red Bull because of him.