2025 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

[MYsee]

Maybe you could make yourself more informed and educated on the matter before posting?

It's well established now that Red Bull team had ignored Max and Newey warnings about the car development path and continued their way. Wache admitted it.

Red Bull’s second driver problem dates all the way back to 2019

Now, maybe all of that has not been down to a car that no one else could drive, but it certainly isn’t a recent thing

I am not sure you can attribute that to Max's feedback though unless you know what his feedback was, Mercedes ignored Hamilton because on paper they could make the car faster, and it didn't go well.

Perez was okay with the Red Bull for a few years 20,22,23 he was in the top few drivers, 24 he fell right off obviously Horner did say last year they looked through the data and identified an issue where Perez started to drop off the issues really began.

I think you could argue Max's talent probably hid the issues, but who know if Max continued to push that direction or if the car kept going quicker and they just didn't pay attention to it - from memory Horner said the issue game to an update in 2023.

Newey said the loss of experienced engineers hurt in its development I think probably pointing out the signs were all there in the data but ignored because the car kept going quicker.

Was some of this Horners fault? I tend to think some of it was I think he could have easily directed engineers to look at what Perez was struggling more. Bit like Stella with McLaren and Lando.

I don't believe the original intent was to design the car exactly to Max's driving capabilities (not style), but it went in that direction. I remember someone at RedBull (maybe Horner or Marko) stating that they didn't want to change the car for Perez as he was the slower driver and their goal was to build the fastest two cars.

Seeing now two other drivers struggle to tame the RB21, it's clear that at some point there became a self-fulfilling prophecy.

[Watto]

Red Bull’s second driver problem dates all the way back to 2019

Now, maybe all of that has not been down to a car that no one else could drive, but it certainly isn’t a recent thing

I am not sure you can attribute that to Max's feedback though unless you know what his feedback was, Mercedes ignored Hamilton because on paper they could make the car faster, and it didn't go well.

Perez was okay with the Red Bull for a few years 20,22,23 he was in the top few drivers, 24 he fell right off obviously Horner did say last year they looked through the data and identified an issue where Perez started to drop off the issues really began.

I think you could argue Max's talent probably hid the issues, but who know if Max continued to push that direction or if the car kept going quicker and they just didn't pay attention to it - from memory Horner said the issue game to an update in 2023.

Newey said the loss of experienced engineers hurt in its development I think probably pointing out the signs were all there in the data but ignored because the car kept going quicker.

Was some of this Horners fault? I tend to think some of it was I think he could have easily directed engineers to look at what Perez was struggling more. Bit like Stella with McLaren and Lando.

I don't believe the original intent was to design the car exactly to Max's driving capabilities (not style), but it went in that direction. I remember someone at RedBull (maybe Horner or Marko) stating that they didn't want to change the car for Perez as he was the slower driver and their goal was to build the fastest two cars.

Seeing now two other drivers struggle to tame the RB21, it's clear that at some point there became a self-fulfilling prophecy.

I don't have an issue with that really. I think Red Bull has always been having the focus a no 1 driver.

I don't think they designed the car just for Max rather as per Mercedes in 2022, on paper it looked quick. Max for a while could handle it in 23, then early into 24. Without being a fly on the wall we can't really know what Max's feedback was, he might have picked up issues but the engineering team didn't pay enough attention and chased a number on paper , add their correlation issues and we have the well self inflicting mess it is.

The signs were there, RBR admitted it after the fact, Newey said it too albeit when he was at AM. They either ignored or it or there wasn't someone senior enough to pull them into line - or a bit of both

[TeamKoolGreen]

He has been reported that Peter Bayer and Laurent Mekies were Horner hires. And the commercial and marketing guys that were also fired, got the Visa sponsor ect.

So basically Horner and his lieutenants fixed Alpha Tauri.

And these are the guys that the board fired lol. They can offer themselves as a unit to any team or any money that wants to join F1

[WardenOfTheNorth]

I am not sure you can attribute that to Max's feedback though unless you know what his feedback was, Mercedes ignored Hamilton because on paper they could make the car faster, and it didn't go well.

Perez was okay with the Red Bull for a few years 20,22,23 he was in the top few drivers, 24 he fell right off obviously Horner did say last year they looked through the data and identified an issue where Perez started to drop off the issues really began.

I think you could argue Max's talent probably hid the issues, but who know if Max continued to push that direction or if the car kept going quicker and they just didn't pay attention to it - from memory Horner said the issue game to an update in 2023.

Newey said the loss of experienced engineers hurt in its development I think probably pointing out the signs were all there in the data but ignored because the car kept going quicker.

Was some of this Horners fault? I tend to think some of it was I think he could have easily directed engineers to look at what Perez was struggling more. Bit like Stella with McLaren and Lando.

I don't believe the original intent was to design the car exactly to Max's driving capabilities (not style), but it went in that direction. I remember someone at RedBull (maybe Horner or Marko) stating that they didn't want to change the car for Perez as he was the slower driver and their goal was to build the fastest two cars.

Seeing now two other drivers struggle to tame the RB21, it's clear that at some point there became a self-fulfilling prophecy.

I don't have an issue with that really. I think Red Bull has always been having the focus a no 1 driver.

I don't think they designed the car just for Max rather as per Mercedes in 2022, on paper it looked quick. Max for a while could handle it in 23, then early into 24. Without being a fly on the wall we can't really know what Max's feedback was, he might have picked up issues but the engineering team didn't pay enough attention and chased a number on paper , add their correlation issues and we have the well self inflicting mess it is.

The signs were there, RBR admitted it after the fact, Newey said it too albeit when he was at AM. They either ignored or it or there wasn't someone senior enough to pull them into line - or a bit of both

The way I heard it (either in Sky Sports F1 or The Race podcast) is that, as you say, the car should, on paper, be faster, but it is so on edge that even Max is struggling to cope with it now.

I was discussing this with someone the other day who gave a good analogy: Modern fighter aircraft are able to be so agile because they're inherently unstable - to the extent that even the best pilots can't fly them without the assistance of the on-board flight computer.

Red Bull have maybe built a modern fighter jet of a car, theoretically fast and agile, but inherently unstable as a result.

[ClarkBT11]

I think that Max talking to Mercedes was part of the plan to force Red Bull to oust Christian, anyone else think that could be the case?

[Lazy]

Jos and Marko are the cancer at the heart of Red Bull and they've tried to make Red Bull a Max Verstappen vehicle. They are just destructive though and Red Bull will sharply decline without Horner's skillset, especially with the engine millstone round their neck. Max won't stick around if they can't build a decent car and if he goes it will be the end for the team and the drinks company will sell.

[avantman]

Red Bull have maybe built a modern fighter jet of a car, theoretically fast and agile, but inherently unstable as a result.

Agile is definitely not the right word. The car is not agile, which is very easy to see on such tracks as Monaco or Singapore. None of new gen red bull cars could be described as agile. Previous gen RBR cars were indeed agile and very on the edge. (and also 'on the nose')
I would say all other top cars - Mclaren, Ferrari and Mercedes look far more agile judging by the onboards.

[basti313]

I think that Max talking to Mercedes was part of the plan to force Red Bull to oust Christian, anyone else think that could be the case?

No. Why should anyone try to put more holes into a sinking ship? If the Verstappen clan wants a shitty car, they can just go to Haas.
Again: They lost one of their strongest allies in the team. Their marketing manager. There is no indication, that Verstappen wins anything with this, they are all indications taken, also a loosing party here.

I don't have an issue with that really. I think Red Bull has always been having the focus a no 1 driver.

This is not really correct. Obvious:
- RedBull had mostly years with a Nr2 struggle. The last 5 years, the last year with Webber, last year Kvyat...that was not a focus, there was simply no Nr2. That was maybe something you would expect from a reserve drive. That was simply something they had to look away because the drivers struggled with themselves, not the car.
- In most years they did not have a Nr2 struggle, they were on equal terms. We saw maybe 3 years Vettel vs. Webber and not even 2 years Ver vs. Per where we can discuss about a realistic Nr1 and Nr2 situation. There were more years, starting the first 4 years, later Ric years, where the drivers were very equal.

I remember someone at RedBull (maybe Horner or Marko) stating that they didn't want to change the car for Perez as he was the slower driver and their goal was to build the fastest two cars.

Just a false claim. Everything said in all honesty by Newey.

He has been reported that Peter Bayer and Laurent Mekies were Horner hires.

Also very wrong. There is an interview with Peter Bayer about the whole process on PlanetF1 for example. Both Bayer and Mekies were approached by Marko and hired by Mintzlaff. The two existing CEOs Horner and Tost were consulted, Tost also gave multiple interviews about this on Sky.

Please guys, get your stories together...you can not just keep repeating imaginations of nonsense, when there are clear interviews of people one can trust that say the opposite.

The signs were there, RBR admitted it after the fact, Newey said it too albeit when he was at AM. They either ignored or it or there wasn't someone senior enough to pull them into line - or a bit of both

I think this is also the point why Honer was sacked in the end. All the reshuffle, Newey out, Wache in is his fault. Horner never designed the car, but he is the one hiring the designer that screwed up.

[Wouter]

[Big Tea]

...No one will pick up the Verstappen family and they will leave F1 too.

Suuure. That does not sound biased at all. Any team will want to get Max. Even with Jos attached.

Is the racing bulls team still for sale? With the people involved here It would be fine entertainment t have a head to head with Verstappen v Horner either way around. Sounds like a decade of unmissable action

[Sergej]

So Max on vacation in Sardinia, Toto as well. Which better place than a super yacht in the most beautiful place of Mediterranean see to seal the new alliance

[Matt-A]

Is papa there too to approve the terms?

[SB15]

George Russell is in Sardinia as well

Looks like that Verstappen Russell pairing may become real, and tbh I think this is the best decision and this would be the biggest news ever in F1 history.

[Wouter]

Deleted myself.

[Wouter]

George Russell is in Sardinia as well

Looks like that Verstappen Russell pairing may become real, and tbh I think this is the best decision and this would be the biggest news ever in F1 history.

.
He isn't. Carmen posted they are in Capri, also Italy but not in Sardinia.