Petition to FIA - 2026 rules canceled, V10s in 2028

[SealTheRealDeal]

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/fia-p ... /10740496/
"Ben Sulayem earlier voiced a desire for V10 engines, but a V8 formula with a more modest and cheaper form of hybrid system would likely make more sense as it is more road relevant and lighter, which would answer calls to further cut down the minimum weight of F1 cars."

Seems the V10 dream is dead, but V8s are cool. I enjoyed the early 2010s cars well enough, just give 'em a bit more displacement so they're less anaemic (by F1 standards). Still doubt it'll come quite as soon as 2029, even if the regs suck the manufacturers will want to get more than three years out of the huge sum they've already invested.

CADILLAC! MAKE YOUR V8 A CROSSPLANE AND MY LIFE IS YOURS!

An NA v8 will not be lighter, especially if it has kers/mguk. It will also require twice as much fuel and much larger(draggier) heat exchangers. If it revs over 15k rpm it will need port fuel injection and it's lifespan will be much reduced.

Depends on the rest of the formula. F1 doesn't *need* 1,000+ HP to be the fastest road course series, the nearest completion (Super Formula) makes due with less than 600.

[coaster]

The V10 Hart hillclimb car with the Jordan gearbox was a show stopper, parts scarcity and cost would have been its undoing.
Hillclimbing is the only place left were likely to hear the sounds, aside from client corsi ferrari.

[ENGINE TUNER]

Depends on the rest of the formula. F1 doesn't *need* 1,000+ HP to be the fastest road course series, the nearest completion (Super Formula) makes due with less than 600.

Disagree, F1 needs around 1000hp, Indycar is increasing hp soon and Formula E already out accelerates F1 with their awd electric. The 2.4L v8s introduced 20 years ago were gutless with barely any torque to the point KERS had to be added.

[WardenOfTheNorth]

How about a V8 and a PHEV system. Instead of bringing back refuelling, at the pitstop they can boost the electrical energy.

Give the manufacturers an area to compete in - faster the boost charge, the better. THAT would then be road relevant....well, as much as anything in F1 is these days anyway.

During a 2 second pit-stop they could hardly connect a connector, much lest "boost" anything.
Also how would they "boost"? Magic. There's neither infrastructure, nor batteries that can charge in seconds.

Also get rid of minimum weight for batteries. If a team has a lighter battery, fantastic.

Cost cap keeps spending in check. Batteries get lighter, therefore cars can get lighter.

The way to make things lighter is to just downsize the batteries. Leaving just enough to make recovery usable.

I was thinking make pitstop longer and while the technology is not there yet, that's where innovation comes in.

They already do a 10% energy boost in Formula E at the pit stop, I'm sure the collective development willpower of F1 manufacturers could reduce the time and increase the power.

[mzso]

How about a V8 and a PHEV system. Instead of bringing back refuelling, at the pitstop they can boost the electrical energy.

Give the manufacturers an area to compete in - faster the boost charge, the better. THAT would then be road relevant....well, as much as anything in F1 is these days anyway.

During a 2 second pit-stop they could hardly connect a connector, much lest "boost" anything.
Also how would they "boost"? Magic. There's neither infrastructure, nor batteries that can charge in seconds.

Also get rid of minimum weight for batteries. If a team has a lighter battery, fantastic.

Cost cap keeps spending in check. Batteries get lighter, therefore cars can get lighter.

The way to make things lighter is to just downsize the batteries. Leaving just enough to make recovery usable.

I was thinking make pitstop longer and while the technology is not there yet, that's where innovation comes in.

They already do a 10% energy boost in Formula E at the pit stop, I'm sure the collective development willpower of F1 manufacturers could reduce the time and increase the power.

Giving this more thought, what would be the point? If you want to keep weight down you can't have large batteries.
And small ones like we have now can be charged lap-by-lap by the car. Would still be possible if they didn't remove the H.

And if you go with so much electric power and batteries (including full EVs) then battery swapping would be faster and more effective, since you get a full charge.

[ENGINE TUNER]

How about a V8 and a PHEV system. Instead of bringing back refuelling, at the pitstop they can boost the electrical energy.

Give the manufacturers an area to compete in - faster the boost charge, the better. THAT would then be road relevant....well, as much as anything in F1 is these days anyway.

During a 2 second pit-stop they could hardly connect a connector, much lest "boost" anything.
Also how would they "boost"? Magic. There's neither infrastructure, nor batteries that can charge in seconds.

Also get rid of minimum weight for batteries. If a team has a lighter battery, fantastic.

Cost cap keeps spending in check. Batteries get lighter, therefore cars can get lighter.

The way to make things lighter is to just downsize the batteries. Leaving just enough to make recovery usable.

I was thinking make pitstop longer and while the technology is not there yet, that's where innovation comes in.

They already do a 10% energy boost in Formula E at the pit stop, I'm sure the collective development willpower of F1 manufacturers could reduce the time and increase the power.

Yay pitstops, it is sooooo exciting watching the fastest racecars sitting stationary!!! The more they pit leads to less action on track, pitstops should be banned except to change tires for rain.

They shouldn't have banned the mguh and they should have added a front axle mguk. The hybrid electric components is not what has made the cars heavy, it has actually made the car lighter, it is the safety equipment and most of all.the heavy tires and wheels which have drastically increased the mass since 2013.

[SealTheRealDeal]

Depends on the rest of the formula. F1 doesn't *need* 1,000+ HP to be the fastest road course series, the nearest completion (Super Formula) makes due with less than 600.

Disagree, F1 needs around 1000hp, Indycar is increasing hp soon and Formula E already out accelerates F1 with their awd electric. The 2.4L v8s introduced 20 years ago were gutless with barely any torque to the point KERS had to be added.

Not fully convinced.

IndyCar will always need to be heavier on account of the potential for far worse crashes at ovals, paired with spec aero they're unlikely to match F1 on road courses. Also, unless I missed an announcement IndyCar's new chassis won't come with a new generation of power trains.

I admittedly haven't been following discussion/speculation of FE gen 4, but so long as the series retains minimal aero and all weather tires, even if they can get their weight down into F1's ballpark, they won't be challenging F1's lap times.

I agree that the 2.4 V8s were weak (by F1 standards), as mentioned, I think a new V8 formula would need more displacement. I will however change my assessment from "a bit more" to "a lot more" as I just learned that the energy storage is excluded from the 151kg minimum weight for the current cars' PU, so now my rough math and guesstimates put the current turbo V6 closer in weight to the 4 litre V8s that the IRL ran in the late 90s than to any of the F1 engines of the 2000s.

[Seanspeed]

Just spent the day at Goodwood FoS.

Cant stress enough how utterly dreadful the hybrid era F1 cars sound compared to basically any other F1 car in history. Not my first time at FoS and knowing this, but it was just a strong reminder of how much the direct comparison drives the reality home. These modern F1 cars sound so utterly lifeless. There are quite a lot of supercars now that sound more impressive.

It really is a huge missing factor with modern F1.

[WardenOfTheNorth]

Just spent the day at Goodwood FoS.

Cant stress enough how utterly dreadful the hybrid era F1 cars sound compared to basically any other F1 car in history. Not my first time at FoS and knowing this, but it was just a strong reminder of how much the direct comparison drives the reality home. These modern F1 cars sound so utterly lifeless. There are quite a lot of supercars now that sound more impressive.

It really is a huge missing factor with modern F1.

Funny thing is, I spent 2 days at Silverstone working whilst the tyre testing was going on and love the sound of the current spec F1 PU. So complex and especially the off-throttle sounds. Maybe if they just revved slightly higher.

Just goes to show, they will never please us all.

[Seanspeed]

Just spent the day at Goodwood FoS.

Cant stress enough how utterly dreadful the hybrid era F1 cars sound compared to basically any other F1 car in history. Not my first time at FoS and knowing this, but it was just a strong reminder of how much the direct comparison drives the reality home. These modern F1 cars sound so utterly lifeless. There are quite a lot of supercars now that sound more impressive.

It really is a huge missing factor with modern F1.

Funny thing is, I spent 2 days at Silverstone working whilst the tyre testing was going on and love the sound of the current spec F1 PU. So complex and especially the off-throttle sounds. Maybe if they just revved slightly higher.

Just goes to show, they will never please us all.

You're not getting any kind of direct comparison that way, though. It's the sort of thing that if it's all you're hearing for two days straight, then I can see how you just adjust to that as 'normal' and maybe even good(it's still a 1000hp race car engine, after all).

But the second you hear it come directly after even a screaming V8 from the era right before these new hybrids, you immediately realize how insanely lacking they are in comparison. And it's not some subtle thing, it's like extremely night and day.

I'd also speculate that people who think these newer F1 engines sound great or somehow at least not quite a lot worse than ones before, are in a severe minority. We dont need to please everybody. And I hardly think even you would complain if we went back to louder, more impressive sounding engines, right?

[WardenOfTheNorth]

Just spent the day at Goodwood FoS.

Cant stress enough how utterly dreadful the hybrid era F1 cars sound compared to basically any other F1 car in history. Not my first time at FoS and knowing this, but it was just a strong reminder of how much the direct comparison drives the reality home. These modern F1 cars sound so utterly lifeless. There are quite a lot of supercars now that sound more impressive.

It really is a huge missing factor with modern F1.

Funny thing is, I spent 2 days at Silverstone working whilst the tyre testing was going on and love the sound of the current spec F1 PU. So complex and especially the off-throttle sounds. Maybe if they just revved slightly higher.

Just goes to show, they will never please us all.

You're not getting any kind of direct comparison that way, though. It's the sort of thing that if it's all you're hearing for two days straight, then I can see how you just adjust to that as 'normal' and maybe even good(it's still a 1000hp race car engine, after all).

But the second you hear it come directly after even a screaming V8 from the era right before these new hybrids, you immediately realize how insanely lacking they are in comparison. And it's not some subtle thing, it's like extremely night and day.

I'd also speculate that people who think these newer F1 engines sound great or somehow at least not quite a lot worse than ones before, are in a severe minority. We dont need to please everybody. And I hardly think even you would complain if we went back to louder, more impressive sounding engines, right?

I've also heard them on days with multiple different age F1 cars running.

The older cars are louder, yes. They are so loud that trackside staff need ear protection and in headphones to use radios. Sure that's a type of character, but is it the best? Purely a matter of taste.

The newer cars are still so loud as to stop conversations while they pass, but not so loud as to risk damage to hearing. Trackside Comms also a lot easier.

And the big question, does the average fan care? Or do they just want good racing regardless of which loud PU is in the back?

My money is on the latter.

And all evidence so far suggests that the manufacturers want modern, more advanced PU as well.

[Seanspeed]

I've also heard them on days with multiple different age F1 cars running.

The older cars are louder, yes. They are so loud that trackside staff need ear protection and in headphones to use radios. Sure that's a type of character, but is it the best? Purely a matter of taste.

The newer cars are still so loud as to stop conversations while they pass, but not so loud as to risk damage to hearing. Trackside Comms also a lot easier.

And the big question, does the average fan care? Or do they just want good racing regardless of which loud PU is in the back?

My money is on the latter.

And all evidence so far suggests that the manufacturers want modern, more advanced PU as well.

I've already made the argument that manufacturers want these duller, more 'advanced' powertrains, so we dont need to go there. I get that part of it and why it's unlikely to ever change.

But I dont think there's any real denying how F1 has lost something special. The older car engines weren't just louder, they had real character as well. The banshee-like wailing of an 18000rpm V10 is just something to behold. It puts a dang smile on your face.

To argue that quieter is better because some people might need to wear earplugs is like arguing that rock concerts should be played at half the volume so people can hear other talk better while a band is playing. It would be dire. The sheer potential need for ear protection is exactly part of the awe factor. It's amazing. I regularly just looked around after one of these monsters launched off the starting line at the FoS and it was just smiles and nods everywhere. Or another example, I heard this massive wailing in the paddock section and went to see a Benetton being tested and revved with a massive crowd surrounding it. As I got underneath the tent with some others, I totally needed to stick my fingers in my ears, but you know what? That whole crowd was gathered specifically to hear the absolute immensity of that V10. It was the noise that people were attracted to.

You're never gonna convince me that these quieter, lifeless engines are what people actually prefer. Maybe plenty of people are just normalized to it and accept it, but again, that makes the point that these same folks wouldn't complain if the engines were louder and more impressive, either.

[WardenOfTheNorth]

I've also heard them on days with multiple different age F1 cars running.

The older cars are louder, yes. They are so loud that trackside staff need ear protection and in headphones to use radios. Sure that's a type of character, but is it the best? Purely a matter of taste.

The newer cars are still so loud as to stop conversations while they pass, but not so loud as to risk damage to hearing. Trackside Comms also a lot easier.

And the big question, does the average fan care? Or do they just want good racing regardless of which loud PU is in the back?

My money is on the latter.

And all evidence so far suggests that the manufacturers want modern, more advanced PU as well.

I've already made the argument that manufacturers want these duller, more 'advanced' powertrains, so we dont need to go there. I get that part of it and why it's unlikely to ever change.

But I dont think there's any real denying how F1 has lost something special. The older car engines weren't just louder, they had real character as well. The banshee-like wailing of an 18000rpm V10 is just something to behold. It puts a dang smile on your face.

To argue that quieter is better because some people might need to wear earplugs is like arguing that rock concerts should be played at half the volume so people can hear other talk better while a band is playing. It would be dire. The sheer potential need for ear protection is exactly part of the awe factor. It's amazing. I regularly just looked around after one of these monsters launched off the starting line at the FoS and it was just smiles and nods everywhere. Or another example, I heard this massive wailing in the paddock section and went to see a Benetton being tested and revved with a massive crowd surrounding it. As I got underneath the tent with some others, I totally needed to stick my fingers in my ears, but you know what? That whole crowd was gathered specifically to hear the absolute immensity of that V10. It was the noise that people were attracted to.

You're never gonna convince me that these quieter, lifeless engines are what people actually prefer. Maybe plenty of people are just normalized to it and accept it, but again, that makes the point that these same folks wouldn't complain if the engines were louder and more impressive, either.

The irony of your comments about Rock concerts is that they ARE quieter these days. Indeed many bands don't even have guitar amps on stage, but instead have them in isolated boxes off stage to control volumes better.

And the current PU also have character, different, but no better or worse.

And my argument around ear protection is valid. What justification is there for having an engine so loud it is dangerous to your hearing?

[bosyber]

I've also heard them on days with multiple different age F1 cars running.

The older cars are louder, yes. They are so loud that trackside staff need ear protection and in headphones to use radios. Sure that's a type of character, but is it the best? Purely a matter of taste.

The newer cars are still so loud as to stop conversations while they pass, but not so loud as to risk damage to hearing. Trackside Comms also a lot easier.

And the big question, does the average fan care? Or do they just want good racing regardless of which loud PU is in the back?

My money is on the latter.

And all evidence so far suggests that the manufacturers want modern, more advanced PU as well.

I've already made the argument that manufacturers want these duller, more 'advanced' powertrains, so we dont need to go there. I get that part of it and why it's unlikely to ever change.

But I dont think there's any real denying how F1 has lost something special. The older car engines weren't just louder, they had real character as well. The banshee-like wailing of an 18000rpm V10 is just something to behold. It puts a dang smile on your face.

To argue that quieter is better because some people might need to wear earplugs is like arguing that rock concerts should be played at half the volume so people can hear other talk better while a band is playing. It would be dire. The sheer potential need for ear protection is exactly part of the awe factor. It's amazing. I regularly just looked around after one of these monsters launched off the starting line at the FoS and it was just smiles and nods everywhere. Or another example, I heard this massive wailing in the paddock section and went to see a Benetton being tested and revved with a massive crowd surrounding it. As I got underneath the tent with some others, I totally needed to stick my fingers in my ears, but you know what? That whole crowd was gathered specifically to hear the absolute immensity of that V10. It was the noise that people were attracted to.

You're never gonna convince me that these quieter, lifeless engines are what people actually prefer. Maybe plenty of people are just normalized to it and accept it, but again, that makes the point that these same folks wouldn't complain if the engines were louder and more impressive, either.

The irony of your comments about Rock concerts is that they ARE quieter these days. Indeed many bands don't even have guitar amps on stage, but instead have them in isolated boxes off stage to control volumes better.

And the current PU also have character, different, but no better or worse.

And my argument around ear protection is valid. What justification is there for having an engine so loud it is dangerous to your hearing?

Don't have anything technical to add, but yeah, I prefer the less loud, more complex sounds of the current cars when going to a grueling hot race I don't need to have my eardrums scream too, for a relatively uninteresting V8 drone (V10 actually was way to much for me last time I heard it in the Torro Rosso's in 2006 at Hockenheim, no thank you, piercing loud but not very interesting to hear.)

[mzso]

They shouldn't have banned the mguh and they should have added a front axle mguk. The hybrid electric components is not what has made the cars heavy, it has actually made the car lighter, it is the safety equipment and most of all.the heavy tires and wheels which have drastically increased the mass since 2013.

I have strong doubts about this. The cars are just too large. You material to make them this large and withstand all the forces they get.