di Montezemolo the hypocrite

manchild · Post 13 Sep 2005, 13:08

Anonymous wrote:...Had both tire companys suffered the same problem then a chicane would have been ideal.Its a game of politics and power and not of the good kind.

/ Fx

You know, communism and other totalitarian systems in general had approach for solving conflicts that insisted on common responsibility regardless who caused the problem (more history lessons from me

) It was due to fear for their existence and it reminded me on FIA approach.

First it blamed Michelin, punished the teams and than abolished them when GPWC started knocking on its door with no explanation at all. When FIA welfare became endangered than everything else lost its importance and meaning.

I don't believe that there are two equally responsible sides in any conflict. Someone always stars first or even premeditates everything in order to appear as provoked side.

What happened in Indy was never cleared out and apart from FIA - Michelin war there is a question if Ferrari (Bridgestone) did premeditate whole situation by testing compound at Indy 500 perhaps without FIA knowing about it.

We’ll probably never know or find out when it looses importance.

manchild · Post 13 Sep 2005, 13:22

RH1300S wrote:OT, but that aircraft is a thing of strange beauty - thanks for the link

OT – Don’t mention it.

For me that is one of the greatest historical injustices when it matters technology. Ader’s airplane had wheels, it wasn’t launched from a rail like Wrights airplane, it also had closed cockpit and considered aerodynamic efficiency. Just compare it with F117 or B2!

I watched a documentary about film news and there was said that Wright brothers including Charles Lindberg got their glory and part in history books only because their flights were recorded by cameras. I forgot the name but it was mentioned that first transatlantic flight was successfully conducted before Lindberg's by some guy who never got worldwide publicity since his flight wasn’t recorded for film news.

manchild · Post 13 Sep 2005, 13:48

Spencifer_Murphy wrote:wow...u speak fantastic english...i thort it WAS ur first language...what is ure first language Manchild? Sorry if its a bit off-topic guys

I also apologize if this is OT…

I don’t actually "speak" English since only time I’ve done it with an English speaking person was in 1986 during my visit to England. I do write a lot in English but sometimes I mess up (sometimes MS Word’s autocorrect messes up things)

My first language doesn’t officialy exists anymore (strange but true and sad but true). It was the major language spoken in former Yugoslavia where I was born and usually called Serbian-Croatian or Croatian-Serbian. Now it doesn’t exist anymore since both Serbia and Croatia including the other republics where it was spoken established new official languages, changed a lot of vocabulary and even invented new words!

It can be said that closest thing to my first language is the one used by ICTY in Hague and called BHS or BCS (Bosnian, Croatian, Serbian).

Slavica Ecclestone and I share the same destiny

(now this sounds less OT than it did at the beginning of this post

)

Guest · Post 13 Sep 2005, 21:45

When you say that Bridgestone tested compunds at Indy are you refering to the IRL cars/race ?

I think that the FIA rules states that the teams that has entered the championship are not free to test anyway they they like but I dont think that there are any restrictions on the tire suppliers, at least I dont think so.

I even think its possible for a tire maker to build/buy a formula 1 car and test it anywhere they want. Does anybody know ?

When reading your previous post you can easily get the impression that you dont think that Michelin and the teams did anything wrong at Indy this year. If not then what kind of punishment do you think the teams and/or Michelin should have recieved ?

/ Fx

manchild · Post 14 Sep 2005, 00:28

Yes I was mentioning INDY 500 race that was held several weeks before the US GP.

Your observation regarding testing reg. is something I agree with but if at least one member of Bridgestone personnel from their F1 crew was there gathering data/testing compound than it is illegal. They can buy F1 car and I I'm sure that all major tyre manufactures have them.

For example - you can buy F1 car from 1990 for only 90.000 euros http://www.carclassic.com/stock.asp?StockID=102192

Hudsonhawk · Post 14 Sep 2005, 11:28

And the hits just keep on coming. That "lingo" thing is even more impressive.

Quite a few people here are narrow minded (i'm sure you know) and seem to be like sheep. Its hard too hard to paddle upstream and here you are you OLD MANCHILD, double pumping those biceps and digging into that icey water.

Sorry......I wont steer off topic again....I dont want to piss in pockets (only Shoie's), I just think that someone needs to praise this person for the effort and time they have invested in presenting consistent factual arguements.

Catch you on the Highway of life Manchild !

Guest · Post 14 Sep 2005, 18:14

As long as the person is employed by Bridgestone then I cant see him/Bridgestone doing something they are not allowed to. Im quite sure that both Michelin and Bridgestone uses all their experience from all fields they are involved with, not just Formula 1.

Perhaps Michelin lacked experience with banked turns at highspeed. Michelin blamed aerodynamic bouncing if I remember correctly but still they raced there last year and really should have been on top of things.
I dont see a Bridgestone conspiracy I see a simple misstake from Michelin that this time pushed the development a tiny bit too far.

/ Fx

Guest · Post 14 Sep 2005, 19:00

wow..really interesting chain of conversation...well to nail it all down...yes michelin made a mistake in thier tire construction. but to take into account the solution was never agreed cos the good ones just didn't fit the design of ferrari...running a chicane at turn 13 still concludes to racing. and ferrari will be in a race insted of a spat. if all the other teams ran in the pits and the bridgestone outside...it still has the same ill effect. the word will go around and it will be a definete fact that ferrari won just because the other teams ran in the pits and they went by the race as usual..it wouldn't be a glorious race anyway you look at it. but at least if there was a race and no points for the michelin teams...ppl will still think yes a race went on and we had fun watching it. looks like ferrari just spoiled for themselves when they got so cocky and ended up designing a car that is just unable to win. that is a question you gotta ask the multiple championship winning team. every great will fall..thats the laws of nature..cos the world is evolving. you may be great now..but you become obsulete after some time.
and anyways..the reason why the michelin teams ended up not racing is that the US laws did not allow it. if it was registered that any team or employee sends out a sportman/ woman in an equipment that is dangerous and the team conciously knows it will fail an endanger the sportsman/womans life, they can be directly sued...or worse.(charged under attempt of manslaugther). that was the final blow which forced the michelin teams to refuse to race.
so yes michelin made a mistake of its tires and started the whole mess in US. but it was Ferrari and FIA's stupidity that blew it to this immense of a proportions.
and i completely agree with manchild of his arguement of the ferrari of old and now.
fx/...i'm sorry but your pulling at straws with no facts to backup your arguement. all i see is your fanatical need to justify something your mind supports and is being chalenged at. its alrite..its completely human...

tetopelis · Post 14 Sep 2005, 19:01

oh by the way that was my post before this

Guest · Post 14 Sep 2005, 19:39

tetopelis: After reading your post I see that you have completely missed
the point.

Where Ferrari is this year is completely irrelevant. Whats important is fairness otherwise you could let Mclaren change the engine before each race just to keep the championship interresting.

A chicane would not have been fair to the teams using Bridgestone tires in my view. I dont see how it possibly could be, can you ?
"cos the good ones just didn't fit the design of ferrari" You mean the good ones from the Michelin view ?

The first group to loose after it was discovered that the Michelin tires were faulty was the fans and after that it was just a question of who had the most political background muscle and this time the 7 Michelinteams lost.
At least thats my theory.

If you look at it from a Ferrari perspective it was a really good weekend. A 1 - 2 for Ferrari while Michelin and the Michelinteams got really bad publicity.

/ Fx

West · Post 14 Sep 2005, 22:24

Who cares about fairness if it leaves a bad taste on everybody's part? Everybody lost out except for Ferrari, although discontent will grow against that group. I don't see what's wrong w/ running a chicane for all teams, and all the Bridgestone runners will get all the points anyway. At least all the cars race, to some extent.

Yes, it was unfair that Michelin request a circuit change so that their cars could run. But then again Jordan and Minardi did not mind, regardless they are not really cars that can compete with any Michelin runner. They found the chicane FAIR. Now you have 9 teams who think the idea is fair, even if Michelin doesn't win any points.

The fans could give a sh*t about fairness if they paid thousands to see a six car race when there should be 20.

manchild · Post 15 Sep 2005, 00:09

In the long term, Ferrari lost much more than anyone else.

Guest · Post 15 Sep 2005, 13:56

Jordan and Minardi are backmarkers and would have finished last and second last chicane or no chicane. So to them it doesnt make a difference.

I dont know why a fair solution could not be agreed upon. But they should have been able to work somethng out. For me as a Ferrari supporter it turned out very good but that doesnt mean that Im not sorry for all the fans that bought a ticket and spend alot of money on the entire weekend.

/ Fx

tetopelis · Post 22 Sep 2005, 16:07

i don't honestly see how ferrari or its fans can take this as a gold drop from heaven...sori to say ppl are just gonna rmbr this whole incident in one way /fx...michilen made a mistake and ferrari only won cos the guys who should have won, weren't racing. cos honestly, everyone and even ferrari know tat there was no way on earth they would have won this race if the michilen teams ran..so if this fashion of rememberance is wat you call a gift...my wat a odd gift.
and backmarkers or not, jordan and minardi have every rite to compete with a full grid, and if seen in this prespective, the other teams not racing is more of a gain for minardi and jordan rather then ferrari. cos from those precious valuble points they gain, they get funds as well...which can cover for thier fly away races. so it would have helped them imensely to have 70% of the grid missing. but they still chose to agree with the chicane building idea. was this race any of a gain to ferrari?..boosting championship procpects?.....nope...boosting thier name...hmmm i think it back fired..so /fx..if you are a ferrari fan..step out of those shoes and look at the picture as just and f1 fan..then probably you might see where the rest of us are getting at.

f1.redbaron · Post 25 Sep 2005, 23:46

Yet another example...

First this one:
http://www.f1racing.net/en/news.php?newsID=99100

Then this:
http://www.f1racing.net/en/news.php?newsID=99304

Is it me or is Ferrari the team currently with the highest budget in F1? Are they going to win the constructors' championship this year? Therefore, aren't they "Chelsea of F1"?