Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[Waz]

Not sure how realistic the illustration is, but it implies that one could locate the compressor inside the V. It's possible that this is what Honda was hiding at their PU launch where they didn't show the back of the engine.

https://i.postimg.cc/6p2VBZTx/image.png

I really hope not. I got instant PTSD because I am certain they also tried this in 2015.

I remember too much vibration and also overheating.

[velizare]

Not sure how realistic the illustration is, but it implies that one could locate the compressor inside the V. It's possible that this is what Honda was hiding at their PU launch where they didn't show the back of the engine.

https://i.postimg.cc/6p2VBZTx/image.png

I really hope not. I got instant PTSD because I am certain they also tried this in 2015.

I remember too much vibration and also overheating.

well, that came from the long shaft of the split turbo which was already solved as they partnered with rb, and its now also banned by fia, so it cannot be the reason.

the honda pu of the earlier red bull times had also very-very conservative limiters, i can remember cases the pilots used to cancel them using dial/button combinations midrace.

[kHz33]

Not sure how realistic the illustration is, but it implies that one could locate the compressor inside the V. It's possible that this is what Honda was hiding at their PU launch where they didn't show the back of the engine.

https://i.postimg.cc/6p2VBZTx/image.png

I really hope not. I got instant PTSD because I am certain they also tried this in 2015.

I remember too much vibration and also overheating.

well, that came from the long shaft of the split turbo which was already solved as they partnered with rb, and its now also banned by fia, so it cannot be the reason.

the honda pu of the earlier red bull times had also very-very conservative limiters, i can remember cases the pilots used to cancel them using dial/button combinations midrace.

didn't Honda first try the split turbo layout in 2017? I remember the 2015-16 engines used a conventional turbo layout, like Ferrari and Renault

[Jaisonas]

Just curious about a rumour thats floating around, people are saying that RBPT poached alot of honda guys that designed and built the 2021-2025 engines and that basically the team thats responsible for this year's engine is basically new.
Is that true? (at least would explain how good RBR is doing rn)

[ryaan2904]

Seems like the engine is a dud.

Matteo Bobbi Sky F1 Italy, having spoken with the people at Aston Martin who say it’s really bad.

- Under powered
- Vibrations are breaking ancillaries
- Looking to utilise additional development and upgrade opportunities
- Honda working on a new PU for 2027

And now Stroll says they have problems with the engine.

It’s not sounding good.

Gossip from Italians like Ferrari will win champ.they should elaborate which parts got broken because of vibrations. The media is biased ie merc is the greatest and some pu from far away land is always looked down upon. It's silly and its not news.

Gossip from Italians? Seems to me like they're just reporting what they heard, like everybody else. The media isn't biased, there is reason to believe the Mercs are ahead atm - they havent denied any of the compression ratio allegations. If everyone's at 16:1 and they are at 18:1, that's a clear advantage. Also Honda PU was regarded as the best PU on the block in the GE era, and for good reason

[mzso]

Just curious about a rumour thats floating around, people are saying that RBPT poached alot of honda guys that designed and built the 2021-2025 engines and that basically the team thats responsible for this year's engine is basically new.
Is that true? (at least would explain how good RBR is doing rn)

I don't think many people moved from Sakura to the UK, if any. Plus, I think many key people are long time loyal Honda people.

[peewon]

Nope, the rules were changed from everyone having to be in agreement to a super majority (3 out of 4 makes that number).

But doesn't that still include all entities. FIA, FOM, teams, engine manufacturers? With I don't know how many votes assigned to each of them.
What are the exact rules for this?

https://www.planetf1.com/news/mercedes- ... date-looms

Of the five PUMs, the FIA, and F1, a supermajority would pass if four PUMs, the FIA, and F1 are in agreement on any proposed solution that involves a rule change, meaning that any PUM that is running higher compression ratios above ambient temperatures would be in contravention of the immediately-revised technical regulations.

What constitutes a supermajority? There are 7 entities listed. The 5 PUMs, The FIA and F1. I will be shocked if FIA and F1 vote against Mercedes. They will make the excuse that its unfair to introduce hot testing this season just like they did with Felxi wings in 2024 and didnt change them till mid '25. They will let it go till '27 and then see if where everyone stands on how much pressure there is on them to change.

[lio007]

double post... deleted

[lio007]

Just curious about a rumour thats floating around, people are saying that RBPT poached alot of honda guys that designed and built the 2021-2025 engines and that basically the team thats responsible for this year's engine is basically new.
Is that true? (at least would explain how good RBR is doing rn)

Honda had a facility in Milton Keynes for the ERS. Some of this staff moved to RBPT but nobody from Japan has joined the team.
Some of these engineers even already moved back to Honda since their U-turn.
RBPT bought (?) this building from Honda in Milton Keynes.

It seems they have also aquired the Honda R&D facility in Milton Keynes:


For comparison: from previous years with Honda logo

I understand RBPT don't use it anymore since they have now their own ERS-building on campus but Honda is located there again.

[Badger]

I really hope not. I got instant PTSD because I am certain they also tried this in 2015.

I remember too much vibration and also overheating.

well, that came from the long shaft of the split turbo which was already solved as they partnered with rb, and its now also banned by fia, so it cannot be the reason.

the honda pu of the earlier red bull times had also very-very conservative limiters, i can remember cases the pilots used to cancel them using dial/button combinations midrace.

didn't Honda first try the split turbo layout in 2017? I remember the 2015-16 engines used a conventional turbo layout, like Ferrari and Renault

Yup. But when Honda first introduced the split turbo in 2017 it was a bit of a disaster, and the engine was initially worse than the one they had before. They improved it pretty quickly during 2017 and in the subsequent years. Still took them until 2021 to reach a truly competitive place.

[Badger]

Just curious about a rumour thats floating around, people are saying that RBPT poached alot of honda guys that designed and built the 2021-2025 engines and that basically the team thats responsible for this year's engine is basically new.
Is that true? (at least would explain how good RBR is doing rn)

This is just a bogus narrative floating around the Alonso-sphere on social media. It’s very hard to recruit people from Honda because they are on the other side of the planet and work in a different language with a different corporate culture. It’s basically the Ferrari problem on stereoids. This is why RBPT mostly targeted HPP and other forms of more local recruitment.

[diffuser]

But doesn't that still include all entities. FIA, FOM, teams, engine manufacturers? With I don't know how many votes assigned to each of them.
What are the exact rules for this?

https://www.planetf1.com/news/mercedes- ... date-looms

Of the five PUMs, the FIA, and F1, a supermajority would pass if four PUMs, the FIA, and F1 are in agreement on any proposed solution that involves a rule change, meaning that any PUM that is running higher compression ratios above ambient temperatures would be in contravention of the immediately-revised technical regulations.

What constitutes a supermajority? There are 7 entities listed. The 5 PUMs, The FIA and F1. I will be shocked if FIA and F1 vote against Mercedes. They will make the excuse that its unfair to introduce hot testing this season just like they did with Felxi wings in 2024 and didnt change them till mid '25. They will let it go till '27 and then see if where everyone stands on how much pressure there is on them to change.

I think F1 and the FIA are almost the same. They have seperate votes just give F1 some controll if need be. The FIA are like the referees of F1. So F1 will almost always vote the with the FIA. The FIA , Nikolas Tombazis, has already said he's gonna do something. So to me it looks like they have the supermajority. What they do with it another thing.

Anyways, I hope they do the right thing peewon.
The idea they set a limit on the CR to save teams money and not disadvantage new teams.This has turned into the opposite, costing the other teams a ton of $$$ and even further disadvantaged teams is just stupid.

[peewon]

I think F1 and the FIA are almost the same. They have seperate votes just give F1 some controll if need be. The FIA are like the referees of F1. So F1 will almost always vote the with the FIA. The FIA , Nikolas Tombazis, has already said he's gonna do something. So to me it looks like they have the supermajority. What they do with it another thing.

Anyways, I hope they do the right thing peewon.
The idea they set a limit on the CR to save teams money and not disadvantage new teams.This has turned into the opposite, costing the other teams a ton of $$$ and even further disadvantaged teams is just stupid.
[/quote]

I would be pleasantly surprised if they do something.
I think FOM (F1) might vote in their commercial interest. Probably lot of politicking within the FOM. Im very skeptical FIA will do anything, especially for this season for two reasons:

FIA added "at ambient temperature" in the regulations at the last minute which more or less solidifies Mercedes' loophole. There is a possibility of a compromise for next year for some hot temp. testing but who knows if it will ever be implementable.

The track record since the entry of Mercedes into F1 suggests they will get their way with any regulatory issue. I cant recall a single incidence of a regulatory ruling going against them. DAS is probably the closest and it lasted the whole season.

The problem for them will be if all the other 4 PUMs are firmly and vocally against it and the regulations are a disaster, it will put enormous pressure on them. Anything short of that, Im not expecting them to do much.

[gearboxtrouble]

I think the CR will be explicitly capped at 16 at all times for 27, what happens in 26 is probably going to be where most of the contention lies. They could treat it like DAS and allow Mercedes engined teams an advantage for 26 or they could equalize things by lowering the electrical energy or fuel flow available to the Mercedes engined cars. A lot is going to depend on the actual gap between the entire PUs, not just in the one area of CR. I don't think we're anywhere close to a 2014 type of situation here so if the Ferrari and RBPT engines are at least able to roughly equal the overall performance of the Mercedes engines over a lap then I think nothing will happen.

[DarkAlman]

Just curious about a rumour thats floating around, people are saying that RBPT poached alot of honda guys that designed and built the 2021-2025 engines and that basically the team thats responsible for this year's engine is basically new.
Is that true? (at least would explain how good RBR is doing rn)

They may have recruited some of the people working in the UK facility but it's unlikely they were able to hire anyone from Sakura.

Firstly those Honda engineers (and their families) are unlikely to want to leave Japan for the UK, and more importantly the work culture of Japan is very different than we are used to.

Japanese generally don't chase salaries and opportunities like people in the west.

You get hired by a company like Honda for LIFE, leaving the company even for a better offer is very rare in Japan and they would consider that shameful behavior.

Honda would also consider Red Bull attempting to poach it's staff to be a personal insult.

It also works the opposite way though, Honda doesn't directly recruit from the outside either.

Even during their worst periods in the McHonda era Honda wouldn't hire any Mercedes or Ferrari engineers to try to solve their problems, they kept in house. Which led to one of my favorite Wazari San posts.

Summarized:

"Why don't you ask the Honda jet engine engineers for help"

"We make jet engines!?"