Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[ispano6]

I won't go into much detail, but that "not being able to charge beyond or let alone" had me thinking that it's not that Honda designed a system that can't "EVEN" charge at 250kW under NORMAL conditions or some hater narrative.

As for the damage, I have a hunch that it is related to the carbon nanotube design of Honda's battery cells. The vibrations may be causing the nanotubes to become dislodged, face the wrong direction, or damaged which ultimately reduce the contact areas that the carbon nanotubes are suppose to bridge within the space gaps. This could significantly reduce the battery's longevity and ability to charge and discharge at a fast rate. CNT usually have good vibration resistance but under extreme conditions, vibrations can damage them.

From Honda's website on ESS Carbon nanotubes:

Carbon nanotubes (CNTs), the key technology for further increasing output
As already explained, ESS development was conducted in the United Kingdom, but being unable to find a local supplier to manufacture the materials that represent a key technology for further increasing output, Honda decided to develop the ESS with the support of a Japanese supplier. The key technology in question was carbon nanotubes (CNTs). Battery cell electrodes containing carbon particles, and electricity flows through these particles.

By filling the spaces between carbon particles with the nanometer-sized, tube-shaped CNTs (with a diameter of one millionth of a millimeter, or 10-9 m), it is possible to achieve low resistance and enable electricity to flow more freely. However, rather than just mixing the CNTs with the carbon particles, this technology provided the knowhow needed to optimize the process, including the mixing method, thickness, and coating method for applying a thin layer of active material to the electrodes.

Battery cells also employ separators that prevent internal short circuits while allowing the transmission of lithium ions between the anode and the cathode, and the thinner those separators can be made, the lower the resistance and the higher the output. If efforts are too aggressive at this time, on the other hand, the risk of internal short circuits increases. When developing a new ESS for the 12th round of the 2021 season, Honda was able to make these separators thinner while maintaining reliability by optimizing the material characteristics.

https://global.honda/en/tech/motorsport ... train_ESS/

The Red Bull chassis did not experience this battery vibration issue and thus must have had countermeasures or a completely different philosophy in chassis rigidity around this area of the monocoque.

[mzso]

Nothing on the RA626H has been optimized yet. It doesn't experience the vibrations on the test-bench, so it needs to be mated to the full drivetrain and monocoque and even then it is not sufficient.

People here are talking about past decades and applying it to today are really just bringing back a grudge. Some people carelessly uttering things like AMR should drop the engine and go with a Mercedes. They don't understand that you don't get that design freedom from a customer engine. It's the reason why they chose a works partnership. Perhaps it didn't need to be exclusive.

How do you know it didn't vibrate? Maybe they just thought that it wouldn't be a problem.
On the other hand AM didn't deliver a chassis (and gearbox?) until very late. So they are at least partially to blame. If they could have tested everything together since early January, they could have fixed everything for testing, and everything could have went smoothly.

[BrunoH]

maybe the fixing points are too light ( or very low density and pass through the frequency )
if they re-inforce make it more dense of fill with some dampening material could be a huge difference.

also makes me wonder is the crankshaft is 2 light? and lost the ability to dampen some of the engine vibrations?

[diffuser]

Nothing on the RA626H has been optimized yet. It doesn't experience the vibrations on the test-bench, so it needs to be mated to the full drivetrain and monocoque and even then it is not sufficient.

People here are talking about past decades and applying it to today are really just bringing back a grudge. Some people carelessly uttering things like AMR should drop the engine and go with a Mercedes. They don't understand that you don't get that design freedom from a customer engine. It's the reason why they chose a works partnership. Perhaps it didn't need to be exclusive.

How do you know it didn't vibrate? Maybe they just thought that it wouldn't be a problem.
On the other hand AM didn't deliver a chassis (and gearbox?) until very late. So they are at least partially to blame. If they could have tested everything together since early January, they could have fixed everything for testing, and everything could have went smoothly.

I'm not sure how many things I can keep going around correcting but I need to stop things from propagating.

- Nothing on the RA626H has been optimized yet.
It has, It's been running on a dyno for months.
- It doesn't experience the vibrations on the test-bench, so it needs to be mated to the full drivetrain and monocoque and even then it is not sufficient.
They are now testing with the full car Dyno and have taken the battery out to finish optimize the PU. So they have been able to replicate the issue. The vibrations aren't being caused by the ICE alone. It's a combination of interconnected devices. The result is kind of like rubbing your finger around the top of a Chrystal wine glass at just the right speed that it starts to ring (resonant vibration). In this case there isn't ringing but the battery start to shake apart. I presume that the higher the ICE RPM the louder the ringing was getting.
- note For now they're exploring fixes/workarounds that do not involve changing the PU/gearbox,etc. I don't know what they are doing but I would guess they're making changes to the dampers between all the devices including the battery and the chassis.

[muzzytt]

So they just had a press conference and the car with the vibrations can't do more than 25 laps before Alonso loses sensations in his fingers from all the vibrations unbelievable worse than 2015

[diffuser]

So they just had a press conference and the car with the vibrations can't do more than 25 laps before Alonso loses sensations in his fingers from all the vibrations unbelievable worse than 2015

At midnight in Australia?

[muzzytt]

It's 1230 in the afternoon here

[muzzytt]

Why Aston Martin will limit Australian GP stint lengths https://share.google/TXr7sBB7FN1vBLKpZ

[gearboxtrouble]

A truly remarkable press conference from Newey. My sense is that he's resistant to the idea that his chassis could be the cause of the vibrations and is putting the onus of fixing it squarely on Honda. I can't see how something in the way the engine interacts with the mounts or the transmission is not the primary cause of these issues which were clearly absent from the test bench. I wonder if the shorter battery lets them move the engine up closer to the driver and this is a contributor to the increased shaking. I'm not sure the blame for this is Honda's alone.

[diffuser]

A truly remarkable press conference from Newey. My sense is that he's resistant to the idea that his chassis could be the cause of the vibrations and is putting the onus of fixing it squarely on Honda. I can't see how something in the way the engine interacts with the mounts or the transmission is not the primary cause of these issues which were clearly absent from the test bench. I wonder if the shorter battery lets them move the engine up closer to the driver and this is a contributor to the increased shaking. I'm not sure the blame for this is Honda's alone.

Pretty easy to bolt the PU into the back of the AMR25 and see.

[MIKEY_!]

Given the different engine architecture it would be far from "easy" to bolt the engine into the AMR25. Doable, but not "easy".

Even if Newey is 100% right and all blame lies with honda (which is unlikely), this kind of public dressing down and blame game is not how you manage a supplier relationship. Especially a Japanese supplier. This is "How to lose friends and alienate people" 101. Newey is about to learn the difference between being a good technical director and being a good team principal.

[FittingMechanics]

It is a full repeat of McHonda (so far). Back then McLaren also thought their chassis is good.

Quite incredible to see how similar the situations are.

[Craigy]

Nothing on the RA626H has been optimized yet. It doesn't experience the vibrations on the test-bench, so it needs to be mated to the full drivetrain and monocoque and even then it is not sufficient.

People here are talking about past decades and applying it to today are really just bringing back a grudge. Some people carelessly uttering things like AMR should drop the engine and go with a Mercedes. They don't understand that you don't get that design freedom from a customer engine. It's the reason why they chose a works partnership. Perhaps it didn't need to be exclusive.

I dunno.

I think it might highlight the decision tree at Honda to some degree. Repeatedly starting and ending with power and size while relegating other things (heat rejection, fuel consumption, oil consumption, internal friction, vibration, longevity, operation with partial failure, tractability) to lower orders of importance.

Everything's a compromise. Getting the compromise wrong several times in a row may highlight an issue with the initial scope design phase.

I refute the "grudge" word by the way. I want Honda to succeed.

[PowerandtheGlory]

I know that there will be plenty of people rushing to Honda's defence and will point to the success they've had (after 5 years of developing)... but this is one of the most commercially humbling things ive ever witnessed in F1.. in the modern era.. Aston must be Livid with them... what a disappointment after all the hype of Newey building a car... Shame on you Honda... PS- Dont troll back Honda-boys- I couldnt care less.... Gutted for the team and drivers

[Martin Keene]

A truly remarkable press conference from Newey. My sense is that he's resistant to the idea that his chassis could be the cause of the vibrations and is putting the onus of fixing it squarely on Honda. I can't see how something in the way the engine interacts with the mounts or the transmission is not the primary cause of these issues which were clearly absent from the test bench. I wonder if the shorter battery lets them move the engine up closer to the driver and this is a contributor to the increased shaking. I'm not sure the blame for this is Honda's alone.

No I can't. Engine vibration is obviously a function of the combustion inside the engine, and it is largely defined by the scantlings of the engine, the major dimensions, bore, stroke, rod to stroke ratio, v angle, etc. All of these produce order of forces, 1st order is once per engine rotation, 2nd order is twice per rotation, etc. All of these forces will be there on the dyno.

There are vibrations that then come in due to the installation of the engine in the car, but they come from the usage profile of the car, not the combustion.