Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[Sayeman]

With Honda announcing massive financial loss, not looking good for their F1 ambitions. As we have seen in f1 and other motorsports, Honda takes much longer than their European counterparts to develop upgrades. Doesn't help that they are
so resistant to hiring foreign talents and super stubborn.

[diffuser]

With Honda announcing massive financial loss, not looking good for their F1 ambitions. As we have seen in f1 and other motorsports, Honda takes much longer than their European counterparts to develop upgrades. Doesn't help that they are
so resistant to hiring foreign talents and super stubborn.

Why do mention stuff like that right after they've announced that they hired a ton of more people and moved personnel from their MotoGP project over to F1 ?

[diffuser]

Honda is fixing the vibrations in the motor and better cushioning the batter for Japan. Then they run the PU at full power and check for vibrations. The major steps are a simple as that.

Next time Honda should not be so quick to disband its specialist engineers to other departments.

nay. its a waste of resources to keep highly qualified personel unemployed for years. there was no point to leave them on a dead project without goals. its common sense to find them something they can work. the shame actually is the f1 pu project had no power to gather them back. this means for me the honda corporate leadership is not commited for f1 on the same level they were previously.

You think planning for 2026 while constantly improving the ICE to be the best PU, like Merc, were NOT valid goals? Better goals are to wait till 2023, till their hands are tied. Then use all that advertising money too look like incompetent fools in 2026. Wow, now that a great investment!

[velizare]

Honda is fixing the vibrations in the motor and better cushioning the batter for Japan. Then they run the PU at full power and check for vibrations. The major steps are a simple as that.

Next time Honda should not be so quick to disband its specialist engineers to other departments.

nay. its a waste of resources to keep highly qualified personel unemployed for years. there was no point to leave them on a dead project without goals. its common sense to find them something they can work. the shame actually is the f1 pu project had no power to gather them back. this means for me the honda corporate leadership is not commited for f1 on the same level they were previously.

You think planning for 2026 while constantly improving the ICE to be the best PU, like Merc, were NOT valid goals? Better goals are to wait till 2023, till their hands are tied. Then use all that advertising money too look like incompetent fools in 2026. Wow, now that a great investment!

they didn't plan to return in 2020, when they announced to leave f1. they didn't plan to return at end 2021, as they left. last development tasks for the 2022 engines run out at 1st of march 2022, so decisions where to allocate them had to be made months earlier. first rumors they might return came early 2023, but commitment came even later.

[Honda Porsche fan]

I don't really think there is anything to be worried about at Aston Martin / Honda.  This is a brand new partnership between two teams.  It will take maybe a half a season to an entire season to settle in.  This is a realistic disadvantage, they have to deal with this learning curve that the other main teams don't.

Red Bull / Honda were working with Exxon Mobil engineers.  Now, Honda is working with Aramco Valvoline engineers.

Honda and Aston Martin had to quickly figure out how to package it together in just a few short months in the off season.

Honda had one of the best if not the best F1 engine for around 4 to 5 straight seasons.  You can't stay on top forever.  The other engine manufacturers surpassed Honda in HP/top speed for the time being.  I think for 2026 this is a Mercedes year.

Honda might have the most powerful engine for 2027 or 2028 or they could make some big strides by mid season ?  But, you can't realistically expect any team or engine to stay on top forever.  And, Honda / Red Bull threw everything they had at the 2026 championship IMO all the way to the final race.  Honda admitted publicly they wanted to do everything to try to end their reign with Red Bull with a championship so their dedication was with Red Bull and not Aston Martin until the off season.

From what I read here, is that the Aston Martin is competitive or actually has a bit of advantage around the curves/tight sections of the race track but, they are slower down the straights, that seems to be an engine issue down on top speed power so, maybe a updated Honda engine by mid-season will bring Aston Martin closer to the front ? ...
https://www.f1technical.net/news/28313? ... fa2f1fbde7


What I'd like to know more about is why Honda does not want to supply more teams with engines the way Mercedes and Ferrari do ?
I just wish Honda had a second or third team to supply engines to for extra data/numbers, larger sample size which might help in speeding up development ?

[LemonLife33]

Agreed, on having another team to gather more mileage on the engine.

[diffuser]

I don't really think there is anything to be worried about at Aston Martin / Honda.  This is a brand new partnership between two teams.  It will take maybe a half a season to an entire season to settle in.  This is a realistic disadvantage, they have to deal with this learning curve that the other main teams don't.

Red Bull / Honda were working with Exxon Mobil engineers.  Now, Honda is working with Aramco Valvoline engineers.

Honda and Aston Martin had to quickly figure out how to package it together in just a few short months in the off season.

Honda had one of the best if not the best F1 engine for around 4 to 5 straight seasons.  You can't stay on top forever.  The other engine manufacturers surpassed Honda in HP/top speed for the time being.  I think for 2026 this is a Mercedes year.

Honda might have the most powerful engine for 2027 or 2028 or they could make some big strides by mid season ?  But, you can't realistically expect any team or engine to stay on top forever.  And, Honda / Red Bull threw everything they had at the 2026 championship IMO all the way to the final race.  Honda admitted publicly they wanted to do everything to try to end their reign with Red Bull with a championship so their dedication was with Red Bull and not Aston Martin until the off season.

From what I read here, is that the Aston Martin is competitive or actually has a bit of advantage around the curves/tight sections of the race track but, they are slower down the straights, that seems to be an engine issue down on top speed power so, maybe a updated Honda engine by mid-season will bring Aston Martin closer to the front ? ...
https://www.f1technical.net/news/28313? ... fa2f1fbde7


What I'd like to know more about is why Honda does not want to supply more teams with engines the way Mercedes and Ferrari do ?
I just wish Honda had a second or third team to supply engines to for extra data/numbers, larger sample size which might help in speeding up development ?

I think nobody wanted them, I mean Alpine had a choice but went with Merc.

[Honda Porsche fan]

Going by Honda's F1 history since the 2000's, in order to have success with them you got to be in it for the long haul and give Honda time to figure it out but, once they do they can build a great engine.

Their problem sometimes is sort of like BMW's in F1. They only fully commit to a 5 to 10 year period and then either withdraw or have a major corporate reshuffle that sets them way back. Their corporate structure and decision making is not consistent like Mercedes' and Ferrari's in F1.

Honda also doesn't seem to do well when they are forced to design their engine around the chassis which McLaren forced Honda to do. Red Bull and Toro Rosso gave Honda the leeway to build the engine how they want.

Mercedes' advantage is they bought an existing experienced British F1 engine manufacturer in Ilmor Engineering and renamed it Mercedes AMG High Performance Powertrains. A lot of British engineers working there.

Honda does it all in Japan.

[diffuser]

Going by Honda's F1 history since the 2000's, in order to have success with them you got to be in it for the long haul and give Honda time to figure it out but, once they do they can build a great engine.

Their problem sometimes is sort of like BMW's in F1. They only fully commit to a 5 to 10 year period and then either withdraw or have a major corporate reshuffle that sets them way back. Their corporate structure and decision making is not consistent like Mercedes' and Ferrari's in F1.

Honda also doesn't seem to do well when they are forced to design their engine around the chassis which McLaren forced Honda to do. Red Bull and Toro Rosso gave Honda the leeway to build the engine how they want.

Mercedes' advantage is they bought an existing experienced British F1 engine manufacturer in Ilmor Engineering and renamed it Mercedes AMG High Performance Powertrains. A lot of British engineers working there.

Honda does it all in Japan.

I don't think that doing it in Japan is the problem. The problem is Honda's in and out of F1 that leads to a shock loss of experience in talent instead of a slower transition of personel. How Merc treats AMG powertrains could be a really good hybred example to Honda. Keep in mind that Honda purposely want to use this project to improve their engineers. I guess I agree with everything else except the Japan thing.

[bigblue]

HRC being a more defined entity in Honda recently is meant to guard against this (I think). But Honda just posted their first ever loss (since public listing), so who knows.

[Honda Porsche fan]

Going by Honda's F1 history since the 2000's, in order to have success with them you got to be in it for the long haul and give Honda time to figure it out but, once they do they can build a great engine.

Their problem sometimes is sort of like BMW's in F1. They only fully commit to a 5 to 10 year period and then either withdraw or have a major corporate reshuffle that sets them way back. Their corporate structure and decision making is not consistent like Mercedes' and Ferrari's in F1.

Honda also doesn't seem to do well when they are forced to design their engine around the chassis which McLaren forced Honda to do. Red Bull and Toro Rosso gave Honda the leeway to build the engine how they want.

Mercedes' advantage is they bought an existing experienced British F1 engine manufacturer in Ilmor Engineering and renamed it Mercedes AMG High Performance Powertrains. A lot of British engineers working there.

Honda does it all in Japan.

I don't think that doing it in Japan is the problem. The problem is Honda's in and out of F1 that leads to a shock loss of experience in talent instead of a slower transition of personel. How Merc treats AMG powertrains could be a really good hybred example to Honda. Keep in mind that Honda purposely want to use this project to improve their engineers. I guess I agree with everything else except the Japan thing.

I agree, that doing it all in Japan is not a problem...

I like the fact they build their entire engine in Japan with Japanese engineers all under the Honda roof.

My personal opinion, it's their corporate decision making on their racing F1 program that I think gives people a lack of confidence in them and the fear of the unknown, not knowing if they will just pull out and leave a team hanging like what Honda did to Brawn and BMW did to Sauber.

Honda and BMW built their engines in-house at their factories by their own engineers which I respect but, it seems to really put a lot of stress on manufacturers doing it that way. Mercedes F1 engines is British former Ilmor in Brixworth UK. I think it's obvious Mercedes Germany figured out long ago how to have a consistent successful F1 program by keeping their operations British. They got 8 engines on the grid and Alpine set the fastest lap at the Chinese Grand Prix. Ross Brawn and Nikki Lauda deserve a lot of credit.

The way Mercedes has their F1 business model set up is the best. Ferrari is a close second and if Red Bull are able to get it together with their Red Bull/Ford engines at their own factory in the UK that will be great.

[Honda Porsche fan]

I think to be successful in today's F1 the engine manufacturer has to have a bigger say in the design of the car. There's not much you can do if you're way down on power and there is a large power deficit to other teams/engines regardless of how good the aero department is...

The aero departments of each team are very good and are now equal with spending/budget cost cap and limiting time/hours spent with CFD, wind tunnel, testing bans, etc.

It use to be different 30 years ago during the V10 era where the power of each engine was a little closer and aero mattered more. Back then, in the early 2000's BMW's slight power advantage could not over come the very conservative aero philosophy of the Williams car. McLaren, Ferrari and Renault/Benetton had a more aggressive aero/suspension approach.

Today, the aero department needs to design their car around the engine and not dictate to the engine manufacturer the size of the engine. The McLaren "size zero" disaster with Honda is a great example.

The Red Bull / Toro Rosso relationship with Honda was great, they let Honda build the engine and built the chassis/aero around it, it worked.

With Aston Martin, I'm sensing a little "McLaren" authoritarian dictating to Honda but, I could be completely wrong about that. There is an obvious power deficit Honda has for the first part of 2026.

I think all the Mercedes' supplied teams all build their cars around the Mercedes engine including the factory Petronas Mercedes team. Every Mercedes supplied team has good speed numbers, sort of like a plug-in play.

[diffuser]

I think to be successful in today's F1 the engine manufacturer has to have a bigger say in the design of the car. There's not much you can do if you're way down on power and there is a large power deficit to other teams/engines regardless of how good the aero department is...

The aero departments of each team are very good and are now equal with spending/budget cost cap and limiting time/hours spent with CFD, wind tunnel, testing bans, etc.

It use to be different 30 years ago during the V10 era where the power of each engine was a little closer and aero mattered more. Back then, in the early 2000's BMW's slight power advantage could not over come the very conservative aero philosophy of the Williams car. McLaren, Ferrari and Renault/Benetton had a more aggressive aero/suspension approach.

Today, the aero department needs to design their car around the engine and not dictate to the engine manufacturer the size of the engine. The McLaren "size zero" disaster with Honda is a great example.

The Red Bull / Toro Rosso relationship with Honda was great, they let Honda build the engine and built the chassis/aero around it, it worked.

With Aston Martin, I'm sensing a little "McLaren" authoritarian dictating to Honda but, I could be completely wrong about that. There is an obvious power deficit Honda has for the first part of 2026.

I think all the Mercedes' supplied teams all build their cars around the Mercedes engine including the factory Petronas Mercedes team. Every Mercedes supplied team has good speed numbers, sort of like a plug-in play.

I think it's 100% different. In 2015 they were coming in fresh. They got many things wrong in the block itself. The turbo sizing and placement they got wrong, then the token system locked them into their original bad design and made it really hard for them to correct. This year's block is pretty much the same as the one they've been perfecting for the last 8 years. Even if the people aren't there they can see the block with their eyes. What's changed it No MGU-H, bigger MGU-K, the position the MGU-K connects to the crankshaft is different position, the fuel and CR. The Fuel and CR will like effect the heads and pistons design (combustion). So the block the connecting rods are probably the same. The crank has changed to handle more power from the MGU-K and the position it connects to it. Even the Turbo has more limitations on it's placement (less chance to get it wrong).

I would guess that even if Honda combustion isn't as good as everyone else. Lets say down 2% in power. That can be made up by chassis, the car could be competitive.

[Honda Porsche fan]

I think to be successful in today's F1 the engine manufacturer has to have a bigger say in the design of the car. There's not much you can do if you're way down on power and there is a large power deficit to other teams/engines regardless of how good the aero department is...

The aero departments of each team are very good and are now equal with spending/budget cost cap and limiting time/hours spent with CFD, wind tunnel, testing bans, etc.

It use to be different 30 years ago during the V10 era where the power of each engine was a little closer and aero mattered more. Back then, in the early 2000's BMW's slight power advantage could not over come the very conservative aero philosophy of the Williams car. McLaren, Ferrari and Renault/Benetton had a more aggressive aero/suspension approach.

Today, the aero department needs to design their car around the engine and not dictate to the engine manufacturer the size of the engine. The McLaren "size zero" disaster with Honda is a great example.

The Red Bull / Toro Rosso relationship with Honda was great, they let Honda build the engine and built the chassis/aero around it, it worked.

With Aston Martin, I'm sensing a little "McLaren" authoritarian dictating to Honda but, I could be completely wrong about that. There is an obvious power deficit Honda has for the first part of 2026.

I think all the Mercedes' supplied teams all build their cars around the Mercedes engine including the factory Petronas Mercedes team. Every Mercedes supplied team has good speed numbers, sort of like a plug-in play.

I think it's 100% different. In 2015 they were coming in fresh. They got many things wrong in the block itself. The turbo sizing and placement they got wrong, then the token system locked them into their original bad design and made it really hard for them to correct. This year's block is pretty much the same as the one they've been perfecting for the last 8 years. Even if the people aren't there they can see the block with their eyes. What's changed it No MGU-H, bigger MGU-K, the position the MGU-K connects to the crankshaft is different position, the fuel and CR. The Fuel and CR will like effect the heads and pistons design (combustion). So the block the connecting rods are probably the same. The crank has changed to handle more power from the MGU-K and the position it connects to it. Even the Turbo has more limitations on it's placement (less chance to get it wrong).

I would guess that even if Honda combustion isn't as good as everyone else. Lets say down 2% in power. That can be made up by chassis, the car could be competitive.

Good points but, was that Honda's fault or McLaren's fault ? I think McLaren wanted a "Size zero" engine and gave Honda the dimensions they expected and wanted and Honda built a smaller lighter engine with a smaller turbo at McLaren's request.

Once Honda went to Toro Rosso / Red Bull things took off pretty quickly where they were allowed to develop the engine more on their own terms.

What are your opinions on the MGU-H / K ? Do you think the elimination of the MGU-H and a bigger MGU-K is a step forward or backwards for efficiency for hybrid technology ?

[GhostF1]

Agree with this. All the learnings from the previous power unit haven't just dissipated, but what they are facing is the difficulty that the new regs have almost forced, specifically Honda, to essentially backtrack on a lot of avenues used on the last PU that made them strong and find new ones.

They made mention that the loss of the MGU-H and the reduced compression ratio actually massively harmed the two specific areas where they were particularly strong compared to their competitors.

Tetsushi Kakuda (current lead PU engineer) stated the compression ratio and fuel flow reductions basically rendered their "rapid combustion" technique that they managed to near perfect previously, entirely unusable. That brought enormous gains for them last regs.

They actually viewed the previous 18:1 CR reg limit as a design limitation with that engine, and only with a few other tricks and specific fuel compositions, were they able to reliably stabilise that combustion method, 20:1 would have made it significantly easier. So a hard, 2 point reduction would be monumental to overcome and find other avenues to regain the power lost.

The MGU-H, they went from disaster in 2015 to class leading from 2021 onwards and had great advantages in their harvest and deploy abilities, now that's gone as well.
So they are essentially back to figuring out the basics. Ideal turbo size to compete with lag but also final output, and with that the ideal combustion method for this new fuel and reduced fuel flow rate and compression ratio. With reduced fuel flow rate generally comes less desire for high rpm running, which affects turbo decisions and regen/harvest capabilities. Cam specifications and timing for ideal torque spread would be a headache and honestly would be super interesting to see compared to last gen for these engines as well.
So while they probably have the block and head basic principles and reliability sorted, the intricacies and everything to actually make field leading power are all new and they need to be clever about it, which will take time. They also have a cost-cap now, which they didn't before, so they can't just infinitely dump money into R&D as they did previously so they trail the other brands who started on the new engine before that came into effect.

It was ALL against them when they re-joined, I wasn't expecting miracles and maybe without this vibration issue, they'd be more or less where I would have expected them, knowing all the above, maybe actually have reliability as a strength with how Honda usually go about development.
I'm just more surprised how badly this vibration issue is plaguing them and my fear is its root cause is a major fundamental issue and will require a redesign of the MGU-K > PU connection/placement which is a huge undertaking and has me worried we'll see a lot of "2027 PU" chat surfacing from the team soon.