Mercedes W17

[FNTC]

I was noticing that all weekend, the Merc front wing was closing at different speeds depending on the corner, and that at it's slowest, it was closing in about 800ms, twice what the rules allow. This gif is slowed 4x and lines-up two corners on Russell's car where the wing closes much faster and much slower.

reddit

How is that not an instant DQ if true? Surely FIA should have access to cameras and look at opening and closing times and if they break the technical regs?

[john downforce]

https://i.postimg.cc/mkvS6vSm/8m56c0b2yapg1.gif

I was noticing that all weekend, the Merc front wing was closing at different speeds depending on the corner, and that at it's slowest, it was closing in about 800ms, twice what the rules allow. This gif is slowed 4x and lines-up two corners on Russell's car where the wing closes much faster and much slower.

reddit

This doesn't seem desirable. Why would you want less front downforce while braking?
Probably a malfunction. Was it the same in the race as well?

the cars spark most when the active aero comes back, with this slow return you can reduce plank wear and therefore run a lower static front ride height (or soften front suspension). you also prevent the endplates making ground contact during the transient by returning the load gradually (you can see on some cars sparks from the endplates at the start of big braking zones), which will give you improved aero performance towards the end of races through lessened aero wear. you may notice from the gif that the slow return only occurs at the end of the main straight into the hairpin, the biggest braking zone on the track, where the most ground contact occurs.

unless they have found some loophole which allows the transition time to exceed 400ms, this is not legal maybe an automated system is adjusting the transition profile based on the braking zone to minimise plank wear (there is nothing in the rules to suggest that the transitions must be consistent, only that they must happen between the same two static positions), and a hard cap of 400ms was not coded in (properly). I doubt anything will be done about this, but maybe from the next race we will no longer see these transition times, which will be the indicator that mercedes realised they messed up.

[SB15]

I was noticing that all weekend, the Merc front wing was closing at different speeds depending on the corner, and that at it's slowest, it was closing in about 800ms, twice what the rules allow. This gif is slowed 4x and lines-up two corners on Russell's car where the wing closes much faster and much slower.

reddit

How is that not an instant DQ if true? Surely FIA should have access to cameras and look at opening and closing times and if they break the technical regs?

"If" But Russell did report that he was having troubles with his front wing. Antonelli's is what the front wing is what it's suppose to do. So let's not jump to the "illegal" allegations yet.

[john downforce]

reddit

How is that not an instant DQ if true? Surely FIA should have access to cameras and look at opening and closing times and if they break the technical regs?

"If" But Russell did report that he was having troubles with his front wing. Antonelli's is what the front wing is what it's suppose to do. So let's not jump to the "illegal" allegations yet.

Antonelli's car does it too at 5:22 in the sprint qualifying highlights

[vorticism]

https://i.postimg.cc/mkvS6vSm/8m56c0b2yapg1.gif

I was noticing that all weekend, the Merc front wing was closing at different speeds depending on the corner, and that at it's slowest, it was closing in about 800ms, twice what the rules allow. This gif is slowed 4x and lines-up two corners on Russell's car where the wing closes much faster and much slower.

reddit

Wasn't their front wing system broken? Russell had one completely fail in Q2 I think, so might be reliability related rather than some sort of variable movement speed?

Telemetry from the actuator controls might be tied in with the ECU and therefor visible to the FIA. The white target dots on the flaps front and rear would be another way the measure duration.

[LM10]

How is that not an instant DQ if true? Surely FIA should have access to cameras and look at opening and closing times and if they break the technical regs?

"If" But Russell did report that he was having troubles with his front wing. Antonelli's is what the front wing is what it's suppose to do. So let's not jump to the "illegal" allegations yet.

Antonelli's car does it too at 5:22 in the sprint qualifying highlights

Well spotted. Very clearly visible.

Is this legal?

[vorticism]

Likely accommodated by in-situ exceptions regarding damage and durability. If a bargeboard or front wing endplate is damaged, still they are allowed to race, despite the part no longer being geometrically legal. I can't imagine a slow FWAS helps them. You'd want to maximize both the low DF and high DF durations. Was a wonky DRS actuator ever a cause for DSQ mid-race?

[Gridlock]

Could they be playing with the definition of the "physical stop" somehow? (emphasis added), such that the 400ms rule applies to only part of the transition?

n. when commanded, switch to one of two fixed positions defined as follows:
i. a “Corner Mode” position, that conforms to a position defined in (k) and that remains
identical following any Straight-Line Mode operation to its position beforehand.
ii. a “Straight-Line Mode” position that, when compared to the Corner Mode position,
results in a decrease in incidence of FW Primary Flap and/or FW Secondary Flap.
Furthermore, except when limited by a physical stop defined in (u), the magnitude of
decrease must remain constant.
o. have a maximum transition time between the two fixed positions that does not exceed 400ms.
...
u. Physical Stops must be provided to prevent both FW Primary Flap and FW Secondary Flap from
being rotated external to RV-FW-PROFILES.

[OO7]

I had initially thought the actuator was underperforming and perhaps the reason for Antonelli's lockup towards the end of the race. However I later realised both cars had been doing this all race. It appears to function at its slowest rate at the car's highest speed.

[Mattchu]

Could they be playing with the definition of the "physical stop" somehow? (emphasis added), such that the 400ms rule applies to only part of the transition?

n. when commanded, switch to one of two fixed positions defined as follows:
i. a “Corner Mode” position, that conforms to a position defined in (k) and that remains
identical following any Straight-Line Mode operation to its position beforehand.
ii. a “Straight-Line Mode” position that, when compared to the Corner Mode position,
results in a decrease in incidence of FW Primary Flap and/or FW Secondary Flap.
Furthermore, except when limited by a physical stop defined in (u), the magnitude of
decrease must remain constant.
o. have a maximum transition time between the two fixed positions that does not exceed 400ms.
...
u. Physical Stops must be provided to prevent both FW Primary Flap and FW Secondary Flap from
being rotated external to RV-FW-PROFILES.

The "physical stop" in this case is more like a railway rigid buffer stop, not the wing rotation coming to a stop. The wing can only go so far, one way or the other before it hits the stop and it must go from point A (open) to point B (closed) or vice versa in less than 400ms.

One would assume that closing the wing[s] when the car is travelling faster takes more effort to overcome than when going slower.
What happens if say a piece of rubber gets stuck near the wing and takes a few ups and downs to clear, is this like the old DRS test which was only done static with a ball not passing through, like a timer and camera on the wing moving when in parc ferme, if it passes that, then it`s fine, until someone brings it up!

[johnnycesup]

One would assume that closing the wing[s] when the car is travelling faster takes more effort to overcome than when going slower.
What happens if say a piece of rubber gets stuck near the wing and takes a few ups and downs to clear, is this like the old DRS test which was only done static with a ball not passing through, like a timer and camera on the wing moving when in parc ferme, if it passes that, then it`s fine, until someone brings it up!

Reglardless, other teams should press the FIA to force Merc to make it faster (and probably heavier and more diruptive to airflow)

[johnnycesup]

I remember Reynard introducing hollow-spoke wheel in the heyday of CART (mid-nineties, IIRC).

I think the atual reason for the hollow spokes might be simply weight. For the same load bearing capacity, a hollow structure is lighter than a solid one in general. Since teams need to physically prevent airflow from passing through the wheel, the "downside" of having a larger blockage to brake cooling flow is eliminated.

Here's the weight difference between hollow and solid Porsche road car wheels.

[PlatinumZealot]

https://i.postimg.cc/mkvS6vSm/8m56c0b2yapg1.gif

I was noticing that all weekend, the Merc front wing was closing at different speeds depending on the corner, and that at it's slowest, it was closing in about 800ms, twice what the rules allow. This gif is slowed 4x and lines-up two corners on Russell's car where the wing closes much faster and much slower.

reddit

The rules do not say the closing speed must be constant at all times. It only says the open and closed positions must remain constant and that the action must take place in 0.4 seconds.

The teams are prefectly free to use variable closing times depending on circumstance.

How this is controlled is up for a deeper inspection however and if feedback loop and controllers are legal is also in need of a deepr look.

[johnnycesup]

The teams are prefectly free to use variable closing times depending on circumstance.

Even if it takes longer than 400ms?

How does that work with the "Formula 1 Cars must comply with these regulations in their entirety at all times during a Competition" rule?

[Brahmal]

I had initially thought the actuator was underperforming and perhaps the reason for Antonelli's lockup towards the end of the race. However I later realised both cars had been doing this all race. It appears to function at its slowest rate at the car's highest speed.

That's when the air resistance is at its greatest so no wonder it takes longer. Doesn't mean that it's intentional, might just need to beef the mechanism up a little.