2026 Hybrid Powerunits

[Badger]

The battery density in the Gen4 is 250ish wh/kg. Achieving a 1,000 Wh/kg battery density is expected by the late 2020s to early 2030s, based on current research and industry roadmaps.

WeLion, a Chinese battery developer, has already achieved 824 Wh/kg in lab tests and aims to surpass 1,000 Wh/kg in the long term.
They and other companies like Dongfeng are targeting mass production of advanced solid-state batteries by 2027–2028, though initial deployments will likely be in niche applications like robotics or premium EVs. When they hit the Gen 5 who knows but that's 4 times the energy for the same weight of battery that they currently have.

SSBs have been "expected" for ages, issues constantly come up. We just had that Donut Labs hoax which is typical of the battery industry.

And even if you can create a battery with nominally high energy density it will create other issues that makes it impractical for F1. Battery chemistry is not magic, it's a compromise between forces that are working against each other. So when you need ultra-high density, high discharge rate, limited cooling, rapid cycling, and a decent lifespan, you are asking for a unicorn product with zero compromises that may never exist, nevermind a few years from now.

“You know, it doesn’t matter what you and I say today—we’ll know in two or three years. I understand that some breakthrough ideas fall apart when people try to scale them up for production, but a large part of the world is fed up with having to pay for oil and gas. There are alternatives, and there is a huge amount of investment, with even bigger rewards for those who succeed.”

Are you quoting yourself now?

These batteries you speak of are not a reality yet, it's vaporware. In two or three years they will need another two or three years to make it to market. I remember when Chat-GPT launched and the story was "two or three years until artificial general intelligence". People in these hyped up industries always oversell the speed of development and adoption even if the long term impact of the tech may be huge. It's part of the game, it's part of how you raise money, all the investors need that FOMO to part ways with their dollars.

F1 shouldn't be the guinea pig for this. Let Formula E do the Mickey Mouse racing where it's all energy management until the final laps and you can't race on the big boy circuits. If and only if the technology becomes genuinely viable for F1's demands should they consider adoption, we're nowhere close in reality.

[mzso]

Not necessarily. There were designs that had rather good power density. If they got some proper development attention they would be even better. It a tech that can be improved iteratively. Always making the active materials thinner, the structural parts lighter, etc.
I think 1/6 race distance (probably even better) is pretty much doable below 800kg at the current state of technology. Using the best cells, and recovering as much as possible

The volumetric density of hydrogen is absolutely awful and makes it a complete non starter for F1. Even if you were to use liquid hydrogen, you would still need a fuel tank volume ~3x that of petrol, and then you're dealing with cryogenic fuel which brings with it another host of problems. Maybe if you used pure liquid deuterium you would have a starting point. Hydrogen fuel cells might one day might find a niche in long distance trucks or military vehicles but I doubt we'll see them outside of that.

I'm not suggesting hydrogen! Never will. I agree that it sucks. Fuel cells for more practical fuels would be needed. Like Solid-Oxide fuel cells with some alcohol, or alkane.

[Cold Fussion]

If you're not using hydrogen you're not really getting much benefit out of a fuel cell for F1 imo. The F1 engines are already have over 50% TE which is very much in the lower range of methane fuel cells. I would be surprised to learn that the power densities could compare with an F1 PU as well.

[diffuser]

SSBs have been "expected" for ages, issues constantly come up. We just had that Donut Labs hoax which is typical of the battery industry.

And even if you can create a battery with nominally high energy density it will create other issues that makes it impractical for F1. Battery chemistry is not magic, it's a compromise between forces that are working against each other. So when you need ultra-high density, high discharge rate, limited cooling, rapid cycling, and a decent lifespan, you are asking for a unicorn product with zero compromises that may never exist, nevermind a few years from now.

“You know, it doesn’t matter what you and I say today—we’ll know in two or three years. I understand that some breakthrough ideas fall apart when people try to scale them up for production, but a large part of the world is fed up with having to pay for oil and gas. There are alternatives, and there is a huge amount of investment, with even bigger rewards for those who succeed.”

Are you quoting yourself now?

These batteries you speak of are not a reality yet, it's vaporware. In two or three years they will need another two or three years to make it to market. I remember when Chat-GPT launched and the story was "two or three years until artificial general intelligence". People in these hyped up industries always oversell the speed of development and adoption even if the long term impact of the tech may be huge. It's part of the game, it's part of how you raise money, all the investors need that FOMO to part ways with their dollars.

F1 shouldn't be the guinea pig for this. Let Formula E do the Mickey Mouse racing where it's all energy management until the final laps and you can't race on the big boy circuits. If and only if the technology becomes genuinely viable for F1's demands should they consider adoption, we're nowhere close in reality.

I said around the corner, niche 2027,2028 and then larger scale 2030.

They've been shipping phones with solid state batteries for a couple of years now. It's not the major brands like Samsung or Apple, who run higher costs if there is a major recall. There are several of the know Chinese brands that have.

That is F1, one big Guinea pig. Has been for 100 years.

[Cold Fussion]

They've been shipping phones with solid state batteries for a couple of years now. It's not the major brands like Samsung or Apple, who run higher costs if there is a major recall. There are several of the know Chinese brands that have.

Which phones have solid state batteries?

[diffuser]

They've been shipping phones with solid state batteries for a couple of years now. It's not the major brands like Samsung or Apple, who run higher costs if there is a major recall. There are several of the know Chinese brands that have.

Which phones have solid state batteries?

Oops, I meant to write silicon carbide.

[Badger]

“You know, it doesn’t matter what you and I say today—we’ll know in two or three years. I understand that some breakthrough ideas fall apart when people try to scale them up for production, but a large part of the world is fed up with having to pay for oil and gas. There are alternatives, and there is a huge amount of investment, with even bigger rewards for those who succeed.”

Are you quoting yourself now?

These batteries you speak of are not a reality yet, it's vaporware. In two or three years they will need another two or three years to make it to market. I remember when Chat-GPT launched and the story was "two or three years until artificial general intelligence". People in these hyped up industries always oversell the speed of development and adoption even if the long term impact of the tech may be huge. It's part of the game, it's part of how you raise money, all the investors need that FOMO to part ways with their dollars.

F1 shouldn't be the guinea pig for this. Let Formula E do the Mickey Mouse racing where it's all energy management until the final laps and you can't race on the big boy circuits. If and only if the technology becomes genuinely viable for F1's demands should they consider adoption, we're nowhere close in reality.

I said around the corner, niche 2027,2028 and then larger scale 2030.

They've been shipping phones with solid state batteries for a couple of years now. It's not the major brands like Samsung or Apple, who run higher costs if there is a major recall. There are several of the know Chinese brands that have.

Are you deliberately misrepresenting things or do you really not know what is going on? Silicon in phone batteries is not SSB, it's a lithium ion battery with a fraction of silicon in the anode. It improves energy density marginally (20-50%) at the cost of increased swelling and cycle fading. Good for some applications but hardly the breakthrough required for F1.

SSBs have been "around the corner" for a long time.

[mzso]

If you're not using hydrogen you're not really getting much benefit out of a fuel cell for F1 imo. The F1 engines are already have over 50% TE which is very much in the lower range of methane fuel cells. I would be surprised to learn that the power densities could compare with an F1 PU as well.

Why would you say that?
I think there's far more potential in Solid oxide fuel cells. Can do 70% efficiency by the looks of it, maybe more. Plus Some heat energy can be recovered because they work on high temperatures.
Nasa claimed that power densities can go up to 2.5kW/kg and 7.5kW/L, in 2019.
Replacing a 100-120kg engine with a fuel cell of similar weight doesn't sound too bad, with it charging a battery buffer in the turns. Less might be even enough, keeping in mind that far more energy can be recovered. (Especially if the front is utilized)

Not sure what technology are youthinking about when saying methane fuel cells. Methane is near as bad as hydrogen.
If you mean methanol, then I'm sure that could be improved a lot with F1 levels of investment.

[mzso]

Are you deliberately misrepresenting things or do you really not know what is going on? Silicon in phone batteries is not SSB, it's a lithium ion battery with a fraction of silicon in the anode. It improves energy density marginally (20-50%) at the cost of increased swelling and cycle fading. Good for some applications but hardly the breakthrough required for F1.

SSBs have been "around the corner" for a long time.

Around the corner is more than enough for F1. They don't need to be commercially viable to be used in F1 where cost doesn't matter much. They don't need to have 20000 cycles to last a couple races. Nor GWh-s of production is needed to satisfy quantity requirements. A decent test production line is enough, with cells that are still under development for commercialization.

And silicone usage in batteries is similar to be fair. It brings improvements, but is also has problems that so far prevented wide-scale usage.

[wuzak]

If you're not using hydrogen you're not really getting much benefit out of a fuel cell for F1 imo. The F1 engines are already have over 50% TE which is very much in the lower range of methane fuel cells. I would be surprised to learn that the power densities could compare with an F1 PU as well.

Why would you say that?
I think there's far more potential in Solid oxide fuel cells. Can do 70% efficiency by the looks of it, maybe more. Plus Some heat energy can be recovered because they work on high temperatures.
Nasa claimed that power densities can go up to 2.5kW/kg and 7.5kW/L, in 2019.
Replacing a 100-120kg engine with a fuel cell of similar weight doesn't sound too bad, with it charging a battery buffer in the turns. Less might be even enough, keeping in mind that far more energy can be recovered. (Especially if the front is utilized)

Not sure what technology are youthinking about when saying methane fuel cells. Methane is near as bad as hydrogen.
If you mean methanol, then I'm sure that could be improved a lot with F1 levels of investment.

2026 ICE = 130kg.

130kg * 2.5kW/kg = 325kW.

So, down about 100kW compared to 2026 ICE that has a severe fuel flow limitation.

325kW/7.5kW/L = 43L.

Length of 2026 ICE = 480mm.

Cross section area = 43L/480mm = 0.29m².

The question is, how much fuel does it use for a race distance?

[mzso]

If you're not using hydrogen you're not really getting much benefit out of a fuel cell for F1 imo. The F1 engines are already have over 50% TE which is very much in the lower range of methane fuel cells. I would be surprised to learn that the power densities could compare with an F1 PU as well.

Why would you say that?
I think there's far more potential in Solid oxide fuel cells. Can do 70% efficiency by the looks of it, maybe more. Plus Some heat energy can be recovered because they work on high temperatures.
Nasa claimed that power densities can go up to 2.5kW/kg and 7.5kW/L, in 2019.
Replacing a 100-120kg engine with a fuel cell of similar weight doesn't sound too bad, with it charging a battery buffer in the turns. Less might be even enough, keeping in mind that far more energy can be recovered. (Especially if the front is utilized)

Not sure what technology are you thinking about when saying methane fuel cells. Methane is near as bad as hydrogen.
If you mean methanol, then I'm sure that could be improved a lot with F1 levels of investment.

2026 ICE = 130kg.

130kg * 2.5kW/kg = 325kW.

So, down about 100kW compared to 2026 ICE that has a severe fuel flow limitation.

325kW/7.5kW/L = 43L.

Length of 2026 ICE = 480mm.

Cross section area = 43L/480mm = 0.29m².

The question is, how much fuel does it use for a race distance?

Cool, but this is just the fuel cell power. It needs a bit of a battery to buffer energy from the cell and regen braking for the straights. Full drive power would be fuel-cell + battery.

[diffuser]

Are you quoting yourself now?

These batteries you speak of are not a reality yet, it's vaporware. In two or three years they will need another two or three years to make it to market. I remember when Chat-GPT launched and the story was "two or three years until artificial general intelligence". People in these hyped up industries always oversell the speed of development and adoption even if the long term impact of the tech may be huge. It's part of the game, it's part of how you raise money, all the investors need that FOMO to part ways with their dollars.

F1 shouldn't be the guinea pig for this. Let Formula E do the Mickey Mouse racing where it's all energy management until the final laps and you can't race on the big boy circuits. If and only if the technology becomes genuinely viable for F1's demands should they consider adoption, we're nowhere close in reality.

I said around the corner, niche 2027,2028 and then larger scale 2030.

They've been shipping phones with solid state batteries for a couple of years now. It's not the major brands like Samsung or Apple, who run higher costs if there is a major recall. There are several of the know Chinese brands that have.

Are you deliberately misrepresenting things or do you really not know what is going on? Silicon in phone batteries is not SSB, it's a lithium ion battery with a fraction of silicon in the anode. It improves energy density marginally (20-50%) at the cost of increased swelling and cycle fading. Good for some applications but hardly the breakthrough required for F1.

SSBs have been "around the corner" for a long time.

No you are, I clearly corrected that 5 hrs before you posted this but you choose to ignore the correction.

https://www.arenaev.com/are_solidstate_ ... s-5535.php

- Geely Auto is taking a huge step that puts it at the front of the pack. The company confirmed it will finish making its first all-solid-state battery pack in 2026. This isn't just a test in a lab - Geely is actually building the battery packs and will start verifying them inside real vehicles this year.

- Dongfeng Motor is arguably moving even faster. On January 14, the company started testing a car with a solid-state battery in extremely cold weather. Cold temperatures are usually tough for electric cars, so this is a key test. Dongfeng plans to start mass production by September 2026. Their new battery has a density of 350 Wh/kg - that's high enough to give a car a driving range of 1,000 km.

- Meanwhile, Svolt Energy is planning to finish its second-generation "semi-solid-state" battery in 2026. This unit will hold even more energy, aiming for 400 Wh/kg. Another big player, FAW Group's Hongqi brand, rolled out a prototype car with solid-state batteries right before the new year, marking its official entry into this high-tech race.

- Factorial Energy, based in Massachusetts, is a key name to watch. They are working with Stellantis (the parent company of Jeep and Dodge) and Mercedes to put their solid-state batteries into a fleet of test cars this year. This "demonstration fleet" is a final step before these batteries can be sold to the public.

- Another major American player is QuantumScape. After years of development, they are set to open their "Eagle Line" pilot production facility this coming February. The factory line is designed to produce solid-state cells for Volkswagen Group. According to the company, mass production is still a year or two away, but the start of automated production in 2026 is a signal that the technology is almost ready for the real world.

[Badger]

I said around the corner, niche 2027,2028 and then larger scale 2030.

They've been shipping phones with solid state batteries for a couple of years now. It's not the major brands like Samsung or Apple, who run higher costs if there is a major recall. There are several of the know Chinese brands that have.

Are you deliberately misrepresenting things or do you really not know what is going on? Silicon in phone batteries is not SSB, it's a lithium ion battery with a fraction of silicon in the anode. It improves energy density marginally (20-50%) at the cost of increased swelling and cycle fading. Good for some applications but hardly the breakthrough required for F1.

SSBs have been "around the corner" for a long time.

No you are, I clearly corrected that 5 hrs before you posted this but you choose to ignore the correction.

https://www.arenaev.com/are_solidstate_ ... s-5535.php

- Geely Auto is taking a huge step that puts it at the front of the pack. The company confirmed it will finish making its first all-solid-state battery pack in 2026. This isn't just a test in a lab - Geely is actually building the battery packs and will start verifying them inside real vehicles this year.

- Dongfeng Motor is arguably moving even faster. On January 14, the company started testing a car with a solid-state battery in extremely cold weather. Cold temperatures are usually tough for electric cars, so this is a key test. Dongfeng plans to start mass production by September 2026. Their new battery has a density of 350 Wh/kg - that's high enough to give a car a driving range of 1,000 km.

- Meanwhile, Svolt Energy is planning to finish its second-generation "semi-solid-state" battery in 2026. This unit will hold even more energy, aiming for 400 Wh/kg. Another big player, FAW Group's Hongqi brand, rolled out a prototype car with solid-state batteries right before the new year, marking its official entry into this high-tech race.

- Factorial Energy, based in Massachusetts, is a key name to watch. They are working with Stellantis (the parent company of Jeep and Dodge) and Mercedes to put their solid-state batteries into a fleet of test cars this year. This "demonstration fleet" is a final step before these batteries can be sold to the public.

- Another major American player is QuantumScape. After years of development, they are set to open their "Eagle Line" pilot production facility this coming February. The factory line is designed to produce solid-state cells for Volkswagen Group. According to the company, mass production is still a year or two away, but the start of automated production in 2026 is a signal that the technology is almost ready for the real world.

Like I said, always around the corner. And then they lie to you and call their battery "SSB" and you find out it's actually not. It's some kind of quasi-SSB with a fraction of the theoretical benefits just so they can use the term for marketing. The energy densities here are not revolutionary and will not change anything in terms of the calculation as far as F1 is concerned. Good for the car industry I'm sure but F1 needs a complete step change in terms of energy density for it to become viable. Get to 1000 Wh/kg in a reliable REAL high performance battery and then we can talk.

[eyelid]

I said around the corner, niche 2027,2028 and then larger scale 2030.

They've been shipping phones with solid state batteries for a couple of years now. It's not the major brands like Samsung or Apple, who run higher costs if there is a major recall. There are several of the know Chinese brands that have.

Are you deliberately misrepresenting things or do you really not know what is going on? Silicon in phone batteries is not SSB, it's a lithium ion battery with a fraction of silicon in the anode. It improves energy density marginally (20-50%) at the cost of increased swelling and cycle fading. Good for some applications but hardly the breakthrough required for F1.

SSBs have been "around the corner" for a long time.

No you are, I clearly corrected that 5 hrs before you posted this but you choose to ignore the correction.

https://www.arenaev.com/are_solidstate_ ... s-5535.php

- Geely Auto is taking a huge step that puts it at the front of the pack. The company confirmed it will finish making its first all-solid-state battery pack in 2026. This isn't just a test in a lab - Geely is actually building the battery packs and will start verifying them inside real vehicles this year.

- Dongfeng Motor is arguably moving even faster. On January 14, the company started testing a car with a solid-state battery in extremely cold weather. Cold temperatures are usually tough for electric cars, so this is a key test. Dongfeng plans to start mass production by September 2026. Their new battery has a density of 350 Wh/kg - that's high enough to give a car a driving range of 1,000 km.

- Meanwhile, Svolt Energy is planning to finish its second-generation "semi-solid-state" battery in 2026. This unit will hold even more energy, aiming for 400 Wh/kg. Another big player, FAW Group's Hongqi brand, rolled out a prototype car with solid-state batteries right before the new year, marking its official entry into this high-tech race.

- Factorial Energy, based in Massachusetts, is a key name to watch. They are working with Stellantis (the parent company of Jeep and Dodge) and Mercedes to put their solid-state batteries into a fleet of test cars this year. This "demonstration fleet" is a final step before these batteries can be sold to the public.

- Another major American player is QuantumScape. After years of development, they are set to open their "Eagle Line" pilot production facility this coming February. The factory line is designed to produce solid-state cells for Volkswagen Group. According to the company, mass production is still a year or two away, but the start of automated production in 2026 is a signal that the technology is almost ready for the real world.

And where are cheap ev cars replacing fossil ICE cars with these solid --- batteries? Nowhere.

[diffuser]

Are you deliberately misrepresenting things or do you really not know what is going on? Silicon in phone batteries is not SSB, it's a lithium ion battery with a fraction of silicon in the anode. It improves energy density marginally (20-50%) at the cost of increased swelling and cycle fading. Good for some applications but hardly the breakthrough required for F1.

SSBs have been "around the corner" for a long time.

No you are, I clearly corrected that 5 hrs before you posted this but you choose to ignore the correction.

https://www.arenaev.com/are_solidstate_ ... s-5535.php

- Geely Auto is taking a huge step that puts it at the front of the pack. The company confirmed it will finish making its first all-solid-state battery pack in 2026. This isn't just a test in a lab - Geely is actually building the battery packs and will start verifying them inside real vehicles this year.

- Dongfeng Motor is arguably moving even faster. On January 14, the company started testing a car with a solid-state battery in extremely cold weather. Cold temperatures are usually tough for electric cars, so this is a key test. Dongfeng plans to start mass production by September 2026. Their new battery has a density of 350 Wh/kg - that's high enough to give a car a driving range of 1,000 km.

- Meanwhile, Svolt Energy is planning to finish its second-generation "semi-solid-state" battery in 2026. This unit will hold even more energy, aiming for 400 Wh/kg. Another big player, FAW Group's Hongqi brand, rolled out a prototype car with solid-state batteries right before the new year, marking its official entry into this high-tech race.

- Factorial Energy, based in Massachusetts, is a key name to watch. They are working with Stellantis (the parent company of Jeep and Dodge) and Mercedes to put their solid-state batteries into a fleet of test cars this year. This "demonstration fleet" is a final step before these batteries can be sold to the public.

- Another major American player is QuantumScape. After years of development, they are set to open their "Eagle Line" pilot production facility this coming February. The factory line is designed to produce solid-state cells for Volkswagen Group. According to the company, mass production is still a year or two away, but the start of automated production in 2026 is a signal that the technology is almost ready for the real world.

And where are cheap ev cars replacing fossil ICE cars with these solid --- batteries? Nowhere.

The United Kingdom has reinstated its original target, meaning the sale of new petrol and diesel cars will be banned from 2030, with the sale of new hybrid vehicles banned from 2035