2026 Hybrid Powerunits

[diffuser]

Are you deliberately misrepresenting things or do you really not know what is going on? Silicon in phone batteries is not SSB, it's a lithium ion battery with a fraction of silicon in the anode. It improves energy density marginally (20-50%) at the cost of increased swelling and cycle fading. Good for some applications but hardly the breakthrough required for F1.

SSBs have been "around the corner" for a long time.

No you are, I clearly corrected that 5 hrs before you posted this but you choose to ignore the correction.

https://www.arenaev.com/are_solidstate_ ... s-5535.php

- Geely Auto is taking a huge step that puts it at the front of the pack. The company confirmed it will finish making its first all-solid-state battery pack in 2026. This isn't just a test in a lab - Geely is actually building the battery packs and will start verifying them inside real vehicles this year.

- Dongfeng Motor is arguably moving even faster. On January 14, the company started testing a car with a solid-state battery in extremely cold weather. Cold temperatures are usually tough for electric cars, so this is a key test. Dongfeng plans to start mass production by September 2026. Their new battery has a density of 350 Wh/kg - that's high enough to give a car a driving range of 1,000 km.

- Meanwhile, Svolt Energy is planning to finish its second-generation "semi-solid-state" battery in 2026. This unit will hold even more energy, aiming for 400 Wh/kg. Another big player, FAW Group's Hongqi brand, rolled out a prototype car with solid-state batteries right before the new year, marking its official entry into this high-tech race.

- Factorial Energy, based in Massachusetts, is a key name to watch. They are working with Stellantis (the parent company of Jeep and Dodge) and Mercedes to put their solid-state batteries into a fleet of test cars this year. This "demonstration fleet" is a final step before these batteries can be sold to the public.

- Another major American player is QuantumScape. After years of development, they are set to open their "Eagle Line" pilot production facility this coming February. The factory line is designed to produce solid-state cells for Volkswagen Group. According to the company, mass production is still a year or two away, but the start of automated production in 2026 is a signal that the technology is almost ready for the real world.

Like I said, always around the corner. And then they lie to you and call their battery "SSB" and you find out it's actually not. It's some kind of quasi-SSB with a fraction of the theoretical benefits just so they can use the term for marketing. The energy densities here are not revolutionary and will not change anything in terms of the calculation as far as F1 is concerned. Good for the car industry I'm sure but F1 needs a complete step change in terms of energy density for it to become viable. Get to 1000 Wh/kg in a reliable REAL high performance battery and then we can talk.

I never said it was ready; I said it’s coming—just around the corner. With regard to reliability, it took Renault ten years of research and development to successfully implement turbocharging in Formula One, leading to the debut of the RS01 in 1977. Although the technology was introduced that year, it was plagued by severe reliability issues and turbo lag, and it took until 1979—two years after the debut—for the team to secure their first victory with a reliable turbocharged engine. That was F1. This is F1 today.

[chipengineer]

The United Kingdom has reinstated its original target, meaning the sale of new petrol and diesel cars will be banned from 2030, with the sale of new hybrid vehicles banned from 2035

Doesn't the UK have elections before 2030? Do you expect these bans to survive them?

[diffuser]

The United Kingdom has reinstated its original target, meaning the sale of new petrol and diesel cars will be banned from 2030, with the sale of new hybrid vehicles banned from 2035

Doesn't the UK have elections before 2030? Do you expect these bans to survive them?

Election are end of August 2029. The 2030 model year's cars will already be at the dealerships.

The price of gas is $$$$ in tge UK.

[gruntguru]

. . . The BEV performance car market has collapsed because few people want one . . .

The real reason is people are simply buying "performance" versions of everyday EV's and getting more "performance" than they know how to handle.

EV supercars are another thing altogether.

[wuzak]

Why would you say that?
I think there's far more potential in Solid oxide fuel cells. Can do 70% efficiency by the looks of it, maybe more. Plus Some heat energy can be recovered because they work on high temperatures.
Nasa claimed that power densities can go up to 2.5kW/kg and 7.5kW/L, in 2019.
Replacing a 100-120kg engine with a fuel cell of similar weight doesn't sound too bad, with it charging a battery buffer in the turns. Less might be even enough, keeping in mind that far more energy can be recovered. (Especially if the front is utilized)

Not sure what technology are you thinking about when saying methane fuel cells. Methane is near as bad as hydrogen.
If you mean methanol, then I'm sure that could be improved a lot with F1 levels of investment.

2026 ICE = 130kg.

130kg * 2.5kW/kg = 325kW.

So, down about 100kW compared to 2026 ICE that has a severe fuel flow limitation.

325kW/7.5kW/L = 43L.

Length of 2026 ICE = 480mm.

Cross section area = 43L/480mm = 0.29m².

The question is, how much fuel does it use for a race distance?

Cool, but this is just the fuel cell power. It needs a bit of a battery to buffer energy from the cell and regen braking for the straights. Full drive power would be fuel-cell + battery.

And how big is the battery?

[gruntguru]

The only VALID reason not switch to full electric is if ICE is faster. Right now it is, that will change in the near future.

Sorry but all formulae are artificially "slowed". Always has been and especially so now that it is possible to build cars with a g-force envelope beyond human endurance.

[gruntguru]

The battery density in the Gen4 is 250ish wh/kg. Achieving a 1,000 Wh/kg battery density is expected by the late 2020s to early 2030s, based on current research and industry roadmaps.

WeLion, a Chinese battery developer, has already achieved 824 Wh/kg in lab tests and aims to surpass 1,000 Wh/kg in the long term.
They and other companies like Dongfeng are targeting mass production of advanced solid-state batteries by 2027–2028, though initial deployments will likely be in niche applications like robotics or premium EVs. When they hit the Gen 5 who knows but that's 4 times the energy for the same weight of battery that they currently have.

SSBs have been "expected" for ages, issues constantly come up. We just had that Donut Labs hoax which is typical of the battery industry. Battery chemistry is not magic, it's a compromise between forces that are working against each other. So when you need ultra-high density, high discharge rate, limited cooling, rapid cycling, and a decent lifespan, you are asking for a unicorn product with zero compromises that may never exist, nevermind a few years from now.

[eyelid]

Those viewership figures are about as real as Santa Claus. When you account for inflation FE has barely grown since 2019. The decision to begin to encroach on FE territory by F1 was a huge mistake, it's an unprofitable series with a shrinking revenue. Meanwhile F1 has been booming with gas-guzzlers for the past 5 years.
https://datawrapper.dwcdn.net/dQwA5/full.png
https://datawrapper.dwcdn.net/UCiY2/full.png

I think we agree on the general point that the popularity of FE is nowhere enough for Liberty to even consider switching F1 to electric? Regardless of the metric you want to use. One nitpick is that FE graph goes till 2024 whereas the F1 graph is till 2025. FE was also back above $200m for 2025.

I think FE will reach its peak popularity when the cars are not battery limited. It will be interesting to see what that looks like. However, I think ICE will always remain the premium series for the foreseeable future.

The only VALID reason not switch to full electric is if ICE is faster. Right now it is, that will change in the near future.

There's no reason anyway to swtich to EV. It won't change in the near future.

[hollus]

That graph really could use a log scale on the y axes. But maybe less than linear then?

[Badger]

The battery density in the Gen4 is 250ish wh/kg. Achieving a 1,000 Wh/kg battery density is expected by the late 2020s to early 2030s, based on current research and industry roadmaps.

WeLion, a Chinese battery developer, has already achieved 824 Wh/kg in lab tests and aims to surpass 1,000 Wh/kg in the long term.
They and other companies like Dongfeng are targeting mass production of advanced solid-state batteries by 2027–2028, though initial deployments will likely be in niche applications like robotics or premium EVs. When they hit the Gen 5 who knows but that's 4 times the energy for the same weight of battery that they currently have.

SSBs have been "expected" for ages, issues constantly come up. We just had that Donut Labs hoax which is typical of the battery industry. Battery chemistry is not magic, it's a compromise between forces that are working against each other. So when you need ultra-high density, high discharge rate, limited cooling, rapid cycling, and a decent lifespan, you are asking for a unicorn product with zero compromises that may never exist, nevermind a few years from now.

https://i.imgur.com/YO9I4yr.png

So if we had 250 Wh/kg batteries 10 years ago, and we had 500 Wh/kg batteries 3 years ago, why is the gravimetric energy density of Formula E batteries only around 165 Wh/kg? Why is the new Gen 4 FE battery only around 160 Wh/kg? Are they stupid? Backwards? They didn’t find the right phone number in the yellow pages? They wanted their cars to be extra heavy and energy constrained?

The problem is you guys throw out numbers with no understanding of the other factors at play. Was it a single cell lab test? What’s the C rate? Did it degrade after 100 cycles? Swelling? Cooling requirements? What’s the fire hazard in case of a crash?

We are talking about a high performance race car here, all these factors matter and the demands are different than for a home appliance. There’s a reason why FE has relatively low energy density in their battery packs and it’s not because they are idiots.

[gruntguru]

SSBs have been "expected" for ages, issues constantly come up. We just had that Donut Labs hoax which is typical of the battery industry. Battery chemistry is not magic, it's a compromise between forces that are working against each other. So when you need ultra-high density, high discharge rate, limited cooling, rapid cycling, and a decent lifespan, you are asking for a unicorn product with zero compromises that may never exist, nevermind a few years from now.

https://i.imgur.com/YO9I4yr.png

So if we had 250 Wh/kg batteries 10 years ago, and we had 500 Wh/kg batteries 3 years ago, why is the gravimetric energy density of Formula E batteries only around 165 Wh/kg? Why is the new Gen 4 FE battery only around 160 Wh/kg? Are they stupid? Backwards? They didn’t find the right phone number in the yellow pages? They wanted their cars to be extra heavy and energy constrained?

The problem is you guys throw out numbers with no understanding of the other factors at play. Was it a single cell lab test? What’s the C rate? Did it degrade after 100 cycles? Swelling? Cooling requirements? What’s the fire hazard in case of a crash?

We are talking about a high performance race car here, all these factors matter and the demands are different than for a home appliance. There’s a reason why FE has relatively low energy density in their battery packs and it’s not because they are idiots.

Here is your answer from AI.
.
The seemingly low energy density of Formula E batteries (roughly 135–140 Wh/kg for the Gen3 pack) is a deliberate engineering trade-off. Unlike a road car battery, which is designed for maximum energy density (how much energy it can store), a Formula E battery is optimized for extreme power density (how fast it can dump and take in energy).
1. Power vs. Energy Trade-off. Battery design is a "zero-sum" game between range and performance.
Road Cars: Prioritize range. They use "energy cells" that store a lot of power but can only release it slowly without overheating.
Formula E: Prioritize throughput. A Formula E car must discharge up to 350 kW of power instantly and, more importantly, absorb up to 600 kW during regenerative braking.
The Result: To handle these "violent" bursts of energy without exploding or melting, the internal chemistry and physical structure (thicker current collectors, robust cooling) must be much heavier than a standard cell.
.
2. Extreme Thermal Management. Charging and discharging at 600 kW generates massive amounts of heat. Formula E batteries require complex liquid cooling systems integrated directly into the pack to keep the cells within a narrow temperature window. This cooling hardware adds significant dead weight that doesn't store energy, dragging down the overall Wh/kg of the total pack.
.
3. Reliability and Durability. Formula E batteries are standardized components (currently supplied by WAE) that must survive an entire season of high-speed racing and vibration. Safety Over Speed: They use specialized NMC (Nickel Manganese Cobalt) chemistries that are more stable under racing stress but slightly less dense than the "bleeding-edge" chemistries used in prototypes that only need to last one lap. Cycle Life: Unlike an F1 battery, which is tiny (1.1 kWh) and can be replaced frequently, these packs are meant to be robust enough to maintain performance across multiple E-Prix events.

4. Comparison to Other EVs.
Vehicle Type. . . . . . . . . Approx Energy Density (Pack Level). . . . . . Primary Goal
Tesla Model 3. . . . . . . . 160–170 Wh/kgLong . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Highway Range
Formula E Gen3. . . . . . .135–140 Wh/kg. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .600 kW Power Throughput
F1 Hybrid Battery. . . . . .35–50 Wh/kg (Estimated). . . . . . . . . . . . . Immediate Burst (Energy is secondary)

[Badger]

So if we had 250 Wh/kg batteries 10 years ago, and we had 500 Wh/kg batteries 3 years ago, why is the gravimetric energy density of Formula E batteries only around 165 Wh/kg? Why is the new Gen 4 FE battery only around 160 Wh/kg? Are they stupid? Backwards? They didn’t find the right phone number in the yellow pages? They wanted their cars to be extra heavy and energy constrained?

The problem is you guys throw out numbers with no understanding of the other factors at play. Was it a single cell lab test? What’s the C rate? Did it degrade after 100 cycles? Swelling? Cooling requirements? What’s the fire hazard in case of a crash?

We are talking about a high performance race car here, all these factors matter and the demands are different than for a home appliance. There’s a reason why FE has relatively low energy density in their battery packs and it’s not because they are idiots.

Here is your answer from AI.
.
The seemingly low energy density of Formula E batteries (roughly 135–140 Wh/kg for the Gen3 pack) is a deliberate engineering trade-off. Unlike a road car battery, which is designed for maximum energy density (how much energy it can store), a Formula E battery is optimized for extreme power density (how fast it can dump and take in energy).
.
1. Power vs. Energy Trade-off. Battery design is a "zero-sum" game between range and performance. Road Cars: Prioritize range. They use "energy cells" that store a lot of power but can only release it slowly without overheating.
.
Formula E: Prioritize throughput. A Formula E car must discharge up to 350 kW of power instantly and, more importantly, absorb up to 600 kW during regenerative braking.
.
The Result: To handle these "violent" bursts of energy without exploding or melting, the internal chemistry and physical structure (thicker current collectors, robust cooling) must be much heavier than a standard cell.
.
2. Extreme Thermal Management. Charging and discharging at 600 kW generates massive amounts of heat. Formula E batteries require complex liquid cooling systems integrated directly into the pack to keep the cells within a narrow temperature window. This cooling hardware adds significant dead weight that doesn't store energy, dragging down the overall Wh/kg of the total pack.
.
3. Reliability and Durability. Formula E batteries are standardized components (currently supplied by WAE) that must survive an entire season of high-speed racing and vibration. Safety Over Speed: They use specialized NMC (Nickel Manganese Cobalt) chemistries that are more stable under racing stress but slightly less dense than the "bleeding-edge" chemistries used in prototypes that only need to last one lap. Cycle Life: Unlike an F1 battery, which is tiny (1.1 kWh) and can be replaced frequently, these packs are meant to be robust enough to maintain performance across multiple E-Prix events.

4. Comparison to Other EVs.
Vehicle Type. . . . . . . . . Approx Energy Density (Pack Level). . . . . . Primary Goal
Tesla Model 3. . . . . . . . 160–170 Wh/kgLong . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Highway Range
Formula E Gen3. . . . . . .135–140 Wh/kg. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .600 kW Power Throughput
F1 Hybrid Battery. . . . . .35–50 Wh/kg (Estimated). . . . . . . . . . . . . Immediate Burst (Energy is secondary)

Yes yes, that’s exactly what I am talking about. There are other factors at play here besides pure theoretical cell density. Batteries are a compromise between all these factors and the motorsport use case pushes it towards high discharge, high cooling, high reliability, high safety, which is antithetical to high density. Yet a motorsport like F1 would obviously need ultra high density for a full electric drivetrain to be even remotely viable.

Some people here will keep daydreaming and reading hype articles about big power density numbers achieved in labs under ideal circumstances and without context for any other relevant factors, and they will pretend it’s “just around the corner” for F1. They are uninformed and deluding themselves. F1 needs to remain anchored in reality and not drift off into La La Land again like we did with this current reg set.