Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[GhostF1]

I don't even know what it could be. ICE to MGU-K coupling? Gearbox/diff? I can't believe it's the ICE itself, that has been fine for years and is in general similar to this year. The K itself would be very smooth (hallmark of most electric motors). How it's geared to the crank maybe??

A lot of the onboard noise from some of the cars *is* from the gearbox (normally a high-pitched whine), such as current Red Bull and most of the Red Bull Honda years, as well as McLaren the last few years. Mic placement plays a big part though which isn't always consistent.
In the past they've even used a different style of onboard mic seemingly at random, on different cars throughout the year (located nearer to the exhaust if memory serves).

Yeah absolutely, the gearbox whine is obvious on most cars and is very identifiable. This though, this just sounds like some really rough connection of something somewhere. You're right in that the mic placement might just be unflattering. But this is a coarse noise I have never come across since the hybrid engines have been in use. It just implies something is not running or operating in the most optimal way. But yes could just be the worst mic placement in history lol

[diffuser]

I don't even know what it could be. ICE to MGU-K coupling? Gearbox/diff? I can't believe it's the ICE itself, that has been fine for years and is in general similar to this year. The K itself would be very smooth (hallmark of most electric motors). How it's geared to the crank maybe??

A lot of the onboard noise from some of the cars *is* from the gearbox (normally a high-pitched whine), such as current Red Bull and most of the Red Bull Honda years, as well as McLaren the last few years. Mic placement plays a big part though which isn't always consistent.
In the past they've even used a different style of onboard mic seemingly at random, on different cars throughout the year (located nearer to the exhaust if memory serves).

Yeah absolutely, the gearbox whine is obvious on most cars and is very identifiable. This though, this just sounds like some really rough connection of something somewhere. You're right in that the mic placement might just be unflattering. But this is a coarse noise I have never come across since the hybrid engines have been in use. It just implies something is not running or operating in the most optimal way. But yes could just be the worst mic placement in history lol

I didn't hear it in the race. Was pretty obvious in quali but it sounded like clutch slip or wheel spin to me at the time.

[GhostF1]

A lot of the onboard noise from some of the cars *is* from the gearbox (normally a high-pitched whine), such as current Red Bull and most of the Red Bull Honda years, as well as McLaren the last few years. Mic placement plays a big part though which isn't always consistent.
In the past they've even used a different style of onboard mic seemingly at random, on different cars throughout the year (located nearer to the exhaust if memory serves).

Yeah absolutely, the gearbox whine is obvious on most cars and is very identifiable. This though, this just sounds like some really rough connection of something somewhere. You're right in that the mic placement might just be unflattering. But this is a coarse noise I have never come across since the hybrid engines have been in use. It just implies something is not running or operating in the most optimal way. But yes could just be the worst mic placement in history lol

I didn't hear it in the race. Was pretty obvious in quali but it sounded like clutch slip or wheel spin to me at the time.

I'm realising how hard it is to try and point to a certain sound in a video with just words/not in person haha. The onboard video I linked above while chasing Perez it is very present the entire time.

[mzso]

Wazari-san!, please come to the front of the class, Sir! And explain to us how Honda solved the vibration issue.

I don't think he'll be around as long as Honda is so far behind.

Until then we can only theorize. My guess is a lot of added dead weight with mass dampers.

[PlatinumZealot]

Wazari-san!, please come to the front of the class, Sir! And explain to us how Honda solved the vibration issue.

I don't think he'll be around as long as Honda is so far behind.

Until then we can only theorize. My guess is a lot of added dead weight with mass dampers.

Well.. Honda hinted that the electric motor and the chassis were responsible. If you read between the lines..

Remember they also tested something then removed it in Japan. So that's a hint it wasn't on the ICE.

[GhostF1]

Wazari-san!, please come to the front of the class, Sir! And explain to us how Honda solved the vibration issue.

I don't think he'll be around as long as Honda is so far behind.

Until then we can only theorize. My guess is a lot of added dead weight with mass dampers.

The Race is reporting they were told the cars had some weight reductions applied along with the driveability improvements and were lighter in Miami than earlier in the season. So if there was any weight added from the vibration fix, it was removed overall from elsewhere.

[Wazari]

Wazari-san!, please come to the front of the class, Sir! And explain to us how Honda solved the vibration issue.

I wouldn't call it fully solved but dampening pieces were installed between the K/motor unit and the chassis as originally advised by Honda but for reasons unknown to me not used by AMR. I was only involved in the ICE portion of the current PU but that is what I was told by fellow HRC staff here in Sakura. I personally missing working with Red Bull. A completely different synergy.

Frustrating because the PU still hasn't been run at 100%. However until a full redesign of the mounting system is implemented, I don't know if the PU can be run at full potential. Extremely disappointing from my viewpoint.

[FNTC]

Frustrating because the PU still hasn't been run at 100%. However until a full redesign of the mounting system is implemented, I don't know if the PU can be run at full potential. Extremely disappointing from my viewpoint.

Is it the MGU-K that can't be run at 100% or the ICE or both? Interesting info, thank you!

[PlatinumZealot]

If I had to guess, both the ICE and the MGUK would be tied to given load parameter on each of the engine maps as optimized on the dyno. When you bring the power unit into the field you can't just magically separate them from their maps.

So you wouldn't have a case where the engineers in Saukura are tuning an non-optimized ICE MGUK map because of vibrations. It would be a waste of resources. It is a better use of resources to map the ICE and MGUk for optimal performance and then simply limit the load in the field. You don't want a case of eating time making maps for bad MGUK and battery mounts. My view on it at least.

[mzso]

Wazari-san!, please come to the front of the class, Sir! And explain to us how Honda solved the vibration issue.

I wouldn't call it fully solved but dampening pieces were installed between the K/motor unit and the chassis as originally advised by Honda but for reasons unknown to me not used by AMR. I was only involved in the ICE portion of the current PU but that is what I was told by fellow HRC staff here in Sakura. I personally missing working with Red Bull. A completely different synergy.

Frustrating because the PU still hasn't been run at 100%. However until a full redesign of the mounting system is implemented, I don't know if the PU can be run at full potential. Extremely disappointing from my viewpoint.

So I guess that means there's still too much vibration, one way or the other.
I wonder how much power does this leave untapped.

I wonder how AM does things differently from Red Bull?

[GhostF1]

Wazari-san!, please come to the front of the class, Sir! And explain to us how Honda solved the vibration issue.

I wouldn't call it fully solved but dampening pieces were installed between the K/motor unit and the chassis as originally advised by Honda but for reasons unknown to me not used by AMR. I was only involved in the ICE portion of the current PU but that is what I was told by fellow HRC staff here in Sakura. I personally missing working with Red Bull. A completely different synergy.

Frustrating because the PU still hasn't been run at 100%. However until a full redesign of the mounting system is implemented, I don't know if the PU can be run at full potential. Extremely disappointing from my viewpoint.

So I guess that means there's still too much vibration, one way or the other.
I wonder how much power does this leave untapped.

I wonder how AM does things differently from Red Bull?

Whatever it is, the fact this 10% ADUO category was introduced, we can assume they are at least 50-60hp down. And as much as Wazari says it "hasn't been pushed to 100% yet", Orihara seems to think they are basically at it's ceiling for outright power, so I can't see them suddenly bridging that gap at 100% if that is true. Mix that with Honda being concerned that most of their techniques used in the previous ICE were made redundant by the new regs and being behind on development, this all makes sense.

It'll be down to whether or not they can do what they did in 2021 and find a way to leap frog everyone. In the meantime, gains will be from learning energy management tricks and refining the entire PU's drivability.

[rcalfa]

I wouldn't call it fully solved but dampening pieces were installed between the K/motor unit and the chassis as originally advised by Honda but for reasons unknown to me not used by AMR. I was only involved in the ICE portion of the current PU but that is what I was told by fellow HRC staff here in Sakura. I personally missing working with Red Bull. A completely different synergy.

Frustrating because the PU still hasn't been run at 100%. However until a full redesign of the mounting system is implemented, I don't know if the PU can be run at full potential. Extremely disappointing from my viewpoint.

So I guess that means there's still too much vibration, one way or the other.
I wonder how much power does this leave untapped.

I wonder how AM does things differently from Red Bull?

Whatever it is, the fact this 10% ADUO category was introduced, we can assume they are at least 50-60hp down. And as much as Wazari says it "hasn't been pushed to 100% yet", Orihara seems to think they are basically at it's ceiling for outright power, so I can't see them suddenly bridging that gap at 100% if that is true. Mix that with Honda being concerned that most of their techniques used in the previous ICE were made redundant by the new regs and being behind on development, this all makes sense.

It'll be down to whether or not they can do what they did in 2021 and find a way to leap frog everyone. In the meantime, gains will be from learning energy management tricks and refining the entire PU's drivability.

Question is, this 50-60hp gap, is including the fact they are not running the PU at 100%, or, in the case they can running it 100% capabilities...still there is this huge horse power gap. And in this case, what is the real current gap in these races.

[diffuser]

Wazari-san!, please come to the front of the class, Sir! And explain to us how Honda solved the vibration issue.

I wouldn't call it fully solved but dampening pieces were installed between the K/motor unit and the chassis as originally advised by Honda but for reasons unknown to me not used by AMR. I was only involved in the ICE portion of the current PU but that is what I was told by fellow HRC staff here in Sakura. I personally missing working with Red Bull. A completely different synergy.

Frustrating because the PU still hasn't been run at 100%. However until a full redesign of the mounting system is implemented, I don't know if the PU can be run at full potential. Extremely disappointing from my viewpoint.

So I guess that means there's still too much vibration, one way or the other.
I wonder how much power does this leave untapped.

I wonder how AM does things differently from Red Bull?

There is a world of difference between the two. AMR has been struggling for years now, with lots of personnel turnover. I’m sure many at AMR F1 are wondering to themselves if they’re part of the solution or part of the problem. Doubt creeps in. Newey has only been there for a year, and Enrico Cardile less than that. They’re still fine-tuning processes and replacing people they don’t think are a good fit, while at the same time trying to build a new car from the ground up. RBR, on the other hand, has been a top-three team for decades. The confidence, vibe, and swagger are completely different.

[mzso]

There is a world of difference between the two. AMR has been struggling for years now, with lots of personnel turnover. I’m sure many at AMR F1 are wondering to themselves if they’re part of the solution or part of the problem. Doubt creeps in. Newey has only been there for a year, and Enrico Cardile less than that. They’re still fine-tuning processes and replacing people they don’t think are a good fit, while at the same time trying to build a new car from the ground up. RBR, on the other hand, has been a top-three team for decades. The confidence, vibe, and swagger are completely different.

That doesn't mean anything about how they communicate and work together with Honda.

[diffuser]

There is a world of difference between the two. AMR has been struggling for years now, with lots of personnel turnover. I’m sure many at AMR F1 are wondering to themselves if they’re part of the solution or part of the problem. Doubt creeps in. Newey has only been there for a year, and Enrico Cardile less than that. They’re still fine-tuning processes and replacing people they don’t think are a good fit, while at the same time trying to build a new car from the ground up. RBR, on the other hand, has been a top-three team for decades. The confidence, vibe, and swagger are completely different.

That doesn't mean anything about how they communicate and work together with Honda.

You asked "I wonder how AM does things differently from Red Bull?"

Wazari said "I personally missing working with Red Bull. A completely different synergy."


The things I mentioned will also impact what they communicate and how. You're unsure of yourself, communicate the wrong things, use the wrong temperament cause you're frustrated, tense.