Alonso technical level

[segedunum]

Alonso's problems with McL were already evident at the first 2 races in 2007.

Yes I know. This Hamilton guy was going to be too damn fast!

[Jon]

Actually, I think there is a lot of uncertainities when you setup a car. I do not want to seem condescendent, so I apologize in advance if the following seems to be a patronizing comment.

I always try hard to assume eeeeverybody here knows as much as everybody, that I am the less knowledgeable in this site and that everybody races at least once a month in a racetrack (if you don't, you should try: it's better than almost anything!).

To begin with (based on extensive karting experience), the driver must learn to drive, no matter how stupid this phrase seems.

What I mean is that a "fast" setup is hard to drive if you're a beginner: you must start with a setup that allows the car to be forgiving with your mistakes. Before "graduating" to a fast setup, you need quite some "seat experience". So, my advice would be: hit the same racing line, lap after lap, with an easy setup, before trying to improve the car.

I haven't driven a simulator for ages, I'm more into the real thing, but perhaps some of the "simulating guys" around can tell you more about the previous paragraph. I would add, in advance to their comments, that some drivers tell me that the kart simulator standard setups are terrible (because they are trying the "fast setup" and they spin out of control).

I just answer: "man, take some time to learn the basics before you start 'arguing' with the simulator developers about setups: when you can use the fast setup and the AI is at 100% AND you can drive 100 laps without spinning, come back and tell me about your lap times: you will be surprised".

Now, suppose you have already enough experience to "hold the line" in a car with a fast setup. What happens next?

One of the most forgotten aspects of "seting-up" a car is the driver himself: you need (I repeat as emphatically as I can: you need) to be consistent. What good is to make a setup change if you take a different racing line? You'll never know if the lap time went down because of your driving or because of the change in setup.

So, being extremely consistent is a virtue. It's the most necessary virtue: when setting up a car you are not trying to break other people's times, you want to learn about the car.

Now, when you move from karts to fast cars, the ones with enough power to spin the wheels when exiting a curve, some people feel terrified. There is a real danger of killing yourself if you go for the record. All the professional drivers I've know are crazy as a goat in spring time using LSD. Being consistent in that frame of mind is very hard. To be as cool as coolness is.

Most of the rational persons, me included, have a moment of doubt when taking the entrance of a fast curve at 200 plus kph. Professionals are totally crazy: they do not hesitate for a moment. That's the reason why I am an instructor for KIDS. I like racing, but I love life more... if you get my drift. So, another virtue is to be brave to the point of stupidity.

That's why I get upset sometimes when I hear comments about the relative value of the people in the grid of Formula One. I'd say 99 out of 100 drivers have the consistency, the seat time and the valor you need to drive a "medium" professional race car. Perhaps 999 out of 1000 people in a racing driver course couldn't drive a powerful car to the limit.

So, to argue about the relative "driving skill" of Räikönnen, Alonso or even Yuji Ide, people that have skills and seat time that only 1 in a million drivers have, is borderly moronic, from my very particular point of view. Most of the time the difference is in the car. I'd say that F1 is a fair of parts, a competition of money and resources: you need money to go fast. Blaming the driver for a particularly bad year is a "naiveté of the first degree".

You all saw Jenson Button winning the WDC this year, didn't you? Is he better than, I don't know, Kobayashi? I'd answer: "well, I'm not sure: better for what?".

So, blaming Alonso for being some tenths of a second (that's like 1 part in 1.000 in a 1:30 lap, for the love of Pete!) slower in a particular car is kind of stupid (sorry, guys, nothing personal).

Finally, the engineers, no matter how much telemetry they have, know dick about the car behaviour. Yes, you keep your setup logs. You know the weather, the temperature, the camber, whatever. However, you need a more important thing: not the brain, but the soul of the driver. I really don't know how a human being does it, but inspiration is very important. Somehow a person, a very good driver, is able to "integrate" everything and give you clues about the car behaviour that a computer cannot give you.

Even then, if you are professionals, as I assume you're totally crazy, as I assume that your mind and your worries go beyond this world, I won't believe even professional drivers criticisms.

In my experience, professionals don't criticize, they try to learn from the competition. Even the worst driver in the grid have some particular quality and you can learn things from the guy in the last spot, even if you're in the first place. Nobody is so bad that is not useful for something.

Once you stop learning from others, you could stop racing that very same day. Now, you try to tell me you don't have anything to learn from Alonso (or even Ide?).

Well, I would like to continue, but that's enough, this post is very long and nobody will read it. Anyway, please, try to look intelligent: criticizing Formula One drivers because of their skills is a little... noobie. And you all race, don't you?

However, please, by all means, go on. Keep critizicing Kimi Räikönnen or Fernando Alonso to your heart contempt. I won't believe your points, anyway, unless you are a professional driver in disguise and then, as I said, I will believe your mad as goats on LSD.

Oh my...Ciro, I stand up and applaud your post...(I feel tempted with most of them, but in this case I literally did).

Please make this a sticky on every forum, and part of what needs to be read when joining the forum. Even better, print it out and keep it in your wallet guys.

=D> =D> =D> =D>

[raceman]

"Over 60 laps, he's an animal," says Mike Gascoyne with characteristic brevity.

sigh


I am in love.....!

:-"

[WhiteBlue]

I'm not an Alonso fan by a huge margin but I can recognize technical talent when I see it. Giblet's quotes about the consistency of Alonso's evaluations of parts reminds me of other good drivers.

Ciro says that engineers know nothing about driving a car. This is why good drivers will be able to speed up the development process by reliable feed back on the performance advances of new parts and changes. I bet there are few drivers out there that can tell an engineer out of the box whether a car lacks rigidity or length of wheel base. I believe that the top guys with some years of experience can do this. I also think that much of the performance programs teams run during a season are kicked off by driver feed back and not by some ingenuity of a guy in an office.

Drivers of Alonso's, Senna's, Prost's or Schumacher's caliber spend a lot of time interfacing with engineers that they develop a deeper understanding of the engineering options. They can help their engineers to get to the performance pinnacle much quicker than instinctive drivers who leave the tech stuff to the techies and focus entirely on their driving.

[mx_tifoso]

As for 2005 he was the recipient of some McLaren engine and chassis failures as well as their 'strange' decisions, as Pat Symonds put it.

Could you please explain those decisions?

Ciro, great post. It was casually written but you definitely get your points across. People should do track driving, karts would be the best to begin with, before criticizing real race car drivers. And even then, criticizing shouldn't even cross your mind. I mean we don't know jack about what goes on inside each F1 team, much less what the drivers go through.

[vall]

Alonso's problems with McL were already evident at the first 2 races in 2007.

Yes I know. This Hamilton guy was going to be too damn fast!

I don't think it was that! Imagine, you are the 2xWDC and you think you are the best. You get a new guy as a teammate and this guy shows good speed in testing, etc. Is this a reason already at the 2nd race not to talk to your boss and at the 1st race your family and friends not to stand to stay in MacL garage and move over Renault? I don't think so...

[ringo]

Then what is it?
They payed him 40 mil, just to get on his nerves by the first 2 races?
He was taken by surprise is all, he wanted a WDC to be handed to him on a silver arrows platter, he didn't expect a rookie to have him looking over his shoulder.
Alonso thought 2WDC automatically comes with shumacher benefits. He did not receive any at Mclaren.
He wanted the easiest way to another championship like the lazy man kimi raikonen who chickened out on teaming with hamilton; just too much work to deal with.

[vall]

Then what is it?
They payed him 40 mil, just to get on his nerves by the first 2 races?
He was taken by surprise is all, he wanted a WDC to be handed to him on a silver arrows platter, he didn't expect a rookie to have him looking over his shoulder.
Alonso thought 2WDC automatically comes with shumacher benefits. He did not receive any at Mclaren.

Good to know that you know what he thought Why don't you tell is more of his thoughts?

Alonso fought hard for the 2xWDCs and to say he expected a WDC to be handed to him on a silver arrows platter makes no sense.

He wanted the easiest way to another championship like the lazy man kimi raikonen who chickened out on teaming with hamilton; just too much work to deal with.

You seems to know Kimmi's thoughts as well Kimmi chickened out? That's interesting claim

[Jersey Tom]

In iRacing I was toddling the Spec Racer Ford around Lime Rock. Every corner, the car seemed to do exactly what was opposite of what you think. It was a plow that didn't like to turn in.

I would brake early and start the rear rotating with a quick turn in, but as soon as I was near the apex, I hit the gas, and PUSH to the outside.

Understeer from rearward longitudinal load transfer on acceleration. Typical of cars with too much tire, or too much inflation, and not enough power to break the rear free through most corners.

Bad combination since it usually also follows that the car frees up quite a bit on entry with forward load transfer.

One way around it is to not brake early.. trailbrake in to over-rotate the car on entry, get the car pointed, then get on the gas and go. Or, from center off, quickly tap the brakes or lift off the throttle when you feel the car plowing to set the fronts and pivot a bit.

[Belatti]

Now, when you move from karts to fast cars, the ones with enough power to spin the wheels when exiting a curve, some people feel terrified. There is a real danger of killing yourself if you go for the record. All the professional drivers I've know are crazy as a goat in spring time using LSD. Being consistent in that frame of mind is very hard. To be as cool as coolness is.

Most of the rational persons, me included, have a moment of doubt when taking the entrance of a fast curve at 200 plus kph. Professionals are totally crazy: they do not hesitate for a moment. That's the reason why I am an instructor for KIDS. I like racing, but I love life more... if you get my drift. So, another virtue is to be brave to the point of stupidity.

Lindo post the mandaste hombre!

Sabes que? Aun sigo sin tener consistencia en el Kart. Es que lo corro muy esporadicamente (digamos unas 30 vueltas cada 2 meses) y con los neumaticos usados que me regalan los profesionales... para mas no me da el bolsillo.
Y me han recomendado ponerle brida al carburador porque me dicen que aprender con un Parilla "libre" es casi imposible. Pero a mi me gusta asi de bruto, con mas de 35HP y que el cojonudo kart te golpee la espalda cuando le pones el derecho encima...

En fin, te cuento que la ultima vez fui solito a probar un kart nuevo que compro mi primo al kartodromo de BsAs. Antes de eso, como estaba horrible de frenos compramos un conjunto muy bueno pero usado de bomba, caliper y pastillas. Por culpa un tornillo mal ajustado entro aire en el circuito y... bueno... al final de la recta a unos 130kph segun mis calculos por las rpm el pie izquierdo... HASTA EL FONDO Y NADA!!!

Por suerte ese es el unico hairpin del circuito que tiene conexion a otro dibujo asi que solo esquive unos neumaticos y sali airoso.

En el momento del percanse jamas dude, estuve tranquilo y frio, loco como cabra en LSD en tus palabras. Pero al bajarme en el pit... como que me cayo la ficha y senti la adrenalina de golpe... mas alla de eso, me sente 10 minutos para relajarme, purgue el freno y sali de vuelta. Esta vez, ya con el kart OK, que tiene setup diferente al que estoy acostumbrado, el maldito si que frenaba en serio. Yo suelo frenar muy adentro (se que aveces no es bueno pero asi me creo mas valiente y mas rapido ) y eso hice, pero fueron 3 intentos y 3 trompos. Este Kart no perdona el crime de hacer trailbraking. Volvi a entrar para regular el cable ya que una peinada equivalia a bloquear el tren trasero y con actitud de volante = trompo!

Al final mejoro, meti algunos tiempos mas decentes, junte todo y me fui a casa. ¿tu que opinas?

[tarzoon]

Ostia hombre! Un texto completo en espanol sin ningun palabron!

There was a video of Ayrton Senna describing the car's behaviour to mechanics. He could describe everything he felt when doing a turn at 150+ kph. Perhaps the biggest difference between pilots is the way they can actually describe it, notthat they can or can't do it.

@Ciro: Finally some good'ol common sense being thrown in for good measure! If it was me doing that turn, I probably would have left a wet spot on my pants, so much for even considering describing it. And that's why they are drivers and I'm not.

[Giblet]

I think if you don't speak Spanish, and use google translate to decipher, it doesn't always make any more sense in English, but we get the drift.:



"You made yourself a nice post, man!

You know what? I still do not have consistency in the Kart. It's just that I run it very sporadically (say about 30 laps every 2 months) and that only by recycling used tires that some professionals give to me ... my pocket cannot be stretched any more.

They have recommended to me to put a carburetor restrictor because they say that learning with a "free" Parilla (NOTE: a kart brand) is almost impossible. But I like it like that, completely raw, having more than 35HP... and that the --- awesome kart hits you in your back when you put the right foot to the bottom...

In the end I can tell you that the last time I went to try a new kart that my cousin bought to Buenos Aires kart track. Before that, because the brakes were horrible, we bought a very good, but already used, pump, calipers and pads. Because of an ill-fitted screw, some air entered into the brake lines and... well ... at the end of the straight, going at about 130kph (according to my calculations, because of the RPM indicator), I slammed the left foot ... TO THE BOTTOM AND NOTHING!

Luckily this is the only hairpin of this circuit, and it continues toward another sector of the track, so I only had to swerve because of a few safety tires and I came out with flying colours.

At the time of the incident I never hesitate, I was calm and cool, crazy like a goat in LSD, in your words. But when I get out on the pit... I crumbled like a house of cards and suddenly I felt the adrenaline running... beyond that, I sat for 10 minutes to relax, bleed the brake and went out to the track again. This time, now with the kart OK, altough it has a different setup of the one I'm used to, the damn thing braked seriously. I usually brake inside the curve (something that sometimes is not that good but makes me think I'm more brave and faster) and that's what I did, but in 3 attempts I had 3 spins. This Kart does not forgive the crime of trailbraking. I came back to pits to fix the braking cable because feathering the brakes with a little touch of the steering wheel = spin!

In the end it improved, I was able to get some decent lap times, I put everything together and went home. What do you think?"

[segedunum]

I always try hard to assume eeeeverybody here knows as much as everybody, that I am the less knowledgeable in this site and that everybody races at least once a month in a racetrack (if you don't, you should try: it's better than almost anything!).

So you've had sex then?

[Ciro Pabón]

So you've had sex then?

Well, it's hard to have three kids if you don't.

Belatti, what do I think, you say?

I think that you're learning as much about setup by driving your kart as by all the time you spend setting up real racing cars that other people handle.

You know (and if you don't I can tell you) you're one of the most informed and well prepared racing engineers around this site: just keep walking, do not pay attention to my posts, yours are better and I'm the mod, so I have to refrain myself a little.

I know you cannot feed us "real information" but first hand experiences and some sincerity and common sense is what this forum is about. I only hope your tale inspires a few people to go to the karting track and take some laps around, or perhaps, marshalling. That will give more sense to our posts. Thanks, I guess the respect for Alonso and everybody else in the grid has grown a little. Oh, and check the brakes at the exit of pits BEFORE reaching the straight... Ostia!

[vall]

this just came out:

http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/n ... 1010.shtml

there is a paragraph about McL 2007