Alonso technical level

[WhiteBlue]

I think that quote is worth a citation.

Ferrari needs someone for the team similar to Schumi. Raikkonen was very fast, but also very closed. In a car that is capable of winning, he was and is perfect. But if the car needs to be developed and the team fired up, Alonso is better.

I wonder how long it will take him to realize that he himself is not equal to Jean Todt and that they have nobody on the level of Brawn and Byrne.

[Jersey Tom]

I wonder how long it will take him to realize that he himself is not equal to Jean Todt and that they have nobody on the level of Brawn and Byrne.

You're basing this off of... conjecture? Or personally knowing the talent level of the inner members of Ferrari?

[WhiteBlue]

I wonder how long it will take him to realize that he himself is not equal to Jean Todt and that they have nobody on the level of Brawn and Byrne.

You're basing this off of... conjecture? Or personally knowing the talent level of the inner members of Ferrari?

Let us say that I have been neither impressed by their 2009 car nor by their operational team and pit crew performance in 2008 and 2009. This covers some ground with regard to the capabilities of the current Ferrari F1 engineering and management team.

[noname]

Let us say that I have been neither impressed by their 2009 car nor by their operational team and pit crew performance in 2008 and 2009. This covers some ground with regard to the capabilities of the current Ferrari F1 engineering and management team.

seems like Stefano is trying to bring back old good days when Shumi was on board, but (I totally agree with WhiteBlue) Ferrari back then was much more then MS.

"team needs to be fired up" ? if you forgot Stefano you are the boss, that's your job. driver can help you but do not try to hide behind him.

I still remember high note given to Kimi's technical abilities by Whitmarsh. it's has more value to me for at least 2 reasons:

1. Whitmarsh is an engineer
2. I respect him for this year when McL transformed MP4-24 into winning car.

Apart from this every time this season when I was reading Dyer's comments after the race there were a lot of warm words about Kimi. And especially after announcement of Alonso switch to red team I was under impression Chris is not so happy with that.

[mep]

I think the account of technical skills of some drivers might be overrated.
It is still the engineers who define the car concept, design every detail and build it. Even most of the setup work is previously done by their simulations before the car even enters a real race track and after that in interpreting the telemetry data.

The job of the drivers is to circle the car around the track using the full potential of the car as often as possible.
To do this they have just a few input parameters on the car mainly the steering wheel, the throttle, the brake and the gear shift. But it is still a very demanding task that is why they have to train their whole live long. They have to start doing this as a small kid and they must adapt their style to every new car or track.

During the same time while those kids are out on some cart tracks are the intended engineers sitting at home reading and studying plenty of things to understand how every single piece works and interacts into the whole system. While the drivers collect their cups in the storage rack collect the engineers books, academical grades and work experience.

In the end they have to work together everybody on his area of expertise. They both have to know stuff of the other field. It will make communication easier when the driver knows some basic technical stuff and when the engineer has once driven a race car but as the engineer can't teach the driver how to drive can't the driver tell the engineer how he has to do his job.

It is more that the driver has to explain as detailed as possible what the car is doing. It is good when he knows himself ways to counteract that but it is no must have. I think it is more important that they motivate themselves and the team to give their best. Disharmony between driver and team will lead to mistakes from both the drivers and the team. A driver with a lack of interest in technical things can still be able to achieve top results.

What I try to say is that you should not underestimate the job the engineers are doing. It is not that easy that you just study a few years and then you can build a perfect race car. As like among the drivers there are good ones and very very few talented ones who really have a full understanding of the things they do. You can see that after drastically rule changes like 2009 or 1998. It was the teams with people like Brawn and Newey, who instantly managed to build fast cars.

[WhiteBlue]

Some drivers see it as essential to study and learn about technology. Michael Schumacher finished his road car mechanics apprenticeship during his cart racing years. A guy like Hülkenberg has worked for parts of the year in all the different Williams factory departments to learn racing technology by heart. They would not do this unless it provided them with a better understanding of the engineering side. Drivers who put in this kind of extra effort are more complete as a result in their skill base.

I only mention this for an indication of the attitude that drivers with strong technical skills display. I'm sure Senna or Alonso were and are equally diligent in the post race briefings with their engineers. Some of these briefings take hours to go over reams of telemetry output. Kimi by comparison is prominent for breezing through those meetings in minutes.

[Jersey Tom]

I think the account of technical skills of some drivers might be overrated.

Sometimes overrated, sometimes underrated. There are NASCAR Sprint Cup drivers with engineering degrees..

[Ray]

I think the account of technical skills of some drivers might be overrated.

Sometimes overrated, sometimes underrated. There are NASCAR Sprint Cup drivers with engineering degrees..

Wait! I thought they were all racist rednecks that screwed their sisters and hated others that had different skin colors than theirs?!? Are you saying that some NASCAR drivers are actually well educated people? /sarcasm

[ISLAMATRON]

I think he did more than well with the mediocre car he had. Renault improved a lot at the end of 2008, and after Spa Alonso got more point that anybody else. 2009 the DDD messed up things a lot and Renault stopped the development in the summer. None of the Alonso's 2 team-mates were anywhere close to the points, while Alonso scored on a regular basis.

More points than anyone else? Is that including the points for the fixed race or not? I read Alonso still thinks it was a valid win... major loss in credibility right there. The Renault has been terrible the last two years and Alonso has been "developing it"... If I remember correctly Renault was the first of the non DDD teams to adopt the DDD, so it all cant be blamed on a lack of development. And comparing him to his rookie teammates is senseless, unless you are comparing him to Hamilton

He has such a great rep for developing the car yet in 2005 & 2006 his competition came from behind in the points to make it closer, Hamilton seemed to get faster in the car over the course of 2007(while Alonso was stagnant or crashing), 2008 was ok, and 2009 was a joke, with the Renault being tail enders by the concluding races. I thought the idea behind development was making the car faster over the course of the year?

You're talking about two separate items and confusing them as one.

1. Alonso's ability to clearly and effectively communicate to the engineers.
2. The engineers' ability to take this information and make the most of it, and develop a winning car.

He could be "clearly and effectively" communicating the WRONG things to the engineers which would stop them from accomplishing #2... not saying he is... his talant is evident, although not as extensive in my eyes as others give him credit for... but then again I'm only looking at the results.

[vall]

More points than anyone else? Is that including the points for the fixed race or not? I read Alonso still thinks it was a valid win... major loss in credibility right there.

fixed race? Fixed would mean that Renault conspired all drivers and teams to let Alonso win. What NPJ & Renault did was to put Alonso in a good position to win. It is a long way to the win from there.....

The Renault has been terrible the last two years and Alonso has been "developing it"... If I remember correctly Renault was the first of the non DDD teams to adopt the DDD, so it all cant be blamed on a lack of development. And comparing him to his rookie teammates is senseless, unless you are comparing him to Hamilton

These cars were not designed to have DDDs, right! Team like Renault & Ferrari has troubles incorporating it and stopped the development earlier.

He has such a great rep for developing the car yet in 2005 & 2006 his competition came from behind in the points to make it closer, Hamilton seemed to get faster in the car over the course of 2007(while Alonso was stagnant or crashing),

Not without the help of FIA in 2006 One think I don't understand - when LH ridiculously crashed in the quali in Monaco, in the back of Kimmi and in the last lap when being 3rd, it is because he drives 110%. When Alonso crushes, it is because it is is his fault and lack of skills Every great F1 WDC made his way up the grid starting from the back, in the weakest cars and proving what they are capable of. On the other had, LH boy was immediately put in the best car of the grid, with opportunity for copy the set-up of a 2xWCD that is known to be very good in setting up the car. In addition, and every lower category LH was competing, he was always installed in the best team, coz McL paid for it. I would like to see LH an a Minardi, etc. I know this is a tread about Alonso and by writing a bit about LH I may get spanked by the moderators, but I could not resist

You're talking about two separate items and confusing them as one.

1. Alonso's ability to clearly and effectively communicate to the engineers.
2. The engineers' ability to take this information and make the most of it, and develop a winning car.

He could be "clearly and effectively" communicating the WRONG things to the engineers which would stop them from accomplishing #2... not saying he is... his talant is evident, although not as extensive in my eyes as others give him credit for... but then again I'm only looking at the results.[/quote]

Well, everyone in F1 says Alonso is good and goes a pretty damn good job in that. Any reason why we should trust you and not the F1 people?

[audifan]

if alonso is such a wonderful driver and so good technically at developing a car why on earth did McLaren get rid of him ? to keep a rookie who wasn't as good ???

it just doesn't make sense ; if hamilton had been dennis' son he would have kept alonso in preference , time for him later : would mercedes ...the biggest shareholder .... have allowed their chances of success to be decreased ? never in a million years ; like McLaren , they are running a business

[vall]

if alonso is such a wonderful driver and so good technically at developing a car why on earth did McLaren get rid of him ? to keep a rookie who wasn't as good ???

Do you think Alonos wanted to stay at McL? I think he wanted to leave

[audifan]

I agree , he wanted to leave ; being outdriven by a rookie would show that he isn't as good as he purports to be

at renault he was world champion thanks to
special tyres
special suspension
special electronics

has everyone forgotten that the renault launch control seemed to gain two places off the grid at every race?

[wesley123]

Not without the help of FIA in 2006 One think I don't understand - when LH ridiculously crashed in the quali in Monaco, in the back of Kimmi and in the last lap when being 3rd, it is because he drives 110%. When Alonso crushes, it is because it is is his fault and lack of skills Every great F1 WDC made his way up the grid starting from the back, in the weakest cars and proving what they are capable of. On the other had, LH boy was immediately put in the best car of the grid, with opportunity for copy the set-up of a 2xWCD that is known to be very good in setting up the car. In addition, and every lower category LH was competing, he was always installed in the best team, coz McL paid for it. I would like to see LH an a Minardi, etc. I know this is a tread about Alonso and by writing a bit about LH I may get spanked by the moderators, but I could not resist

That Hamilton got these 'presents' is simple, he dared to step up to dennis when he was a little boy, since then Hamilton was supported by McLaren. He wasnt always in the best cars, 2004 the F3 series, im sure he wasnt put in the best car. If hamilton didnt step up to Dennis back then he wouldn't have got these seats, but im sure he would have made it to F1. Hamilton proved this year that also he can make mistakes, that is simply a thing of making mistakes, pushing for 110% or not, it is a mistake you just made. Hamilton proved that he and his team can develop a car, the car started as nothing and turned into a race winner at the end of the season, with the right input wich the drivers give it will go alot faster.

Alonso on the other hand has never proved anything for me, actually, i have a big dislike to him, unlike Hamilton Alonso starts to cry when he dont get his 'deserved' number one spot. How good Alonso is at giving his technical input will be shown next year as then he brings his '6 tenths' to ferrari, but sure, Alonso cant do it alone and the whole ferrari team left, Ferrari has turned to where it was at the 80ies, a whole italian team that cant work together. Alonso didnt show last 2 years that he can give the input, the Renault didnt become any better, it was simply a car that drove at the back of the pack. Last year was quite similair, until renault came with something that gained the 25hp, then it turned into a race winner, but before that the whole season was the same.

@Audifan; have to agree, the Renault had alot of special stuff wich others didnt have, wich made the renault itself alot faster, but when others started to develop harder Renault was nowhere, in 2005 around the 5th race renault wasnt fastest anymore and didnt regain it, 2006 is same the first few races the renault was fastest, but as the season followed the renault wasnt fastest anymore, if Alonsos input to its engineers was so great, how can it be that the fall back throughout the season?

[vall]

That Hamilton got these 'presents' is simple, he dared to step up to dennis when he was a little boy, since then Hamilton was supported by McLaren. He wasnt always in the best cars, 2004 the F3 series, im sure he wasnt put in the best car. If hamilton didnt step up to Dennis back then he wouldn't have got these seats, but im sure he would have made it to F1. Hamilton proved this year that also he can make mistakes, that is simply a thing of making mistakes, pushing for 110% or not, it is a mistake you just made. Hamilton proved that he and his team can develop a car, the car started as nothing and turned into a race winner at the end of the season, with the right input wich the drivers give it will go alot faster.

Alonso on the other hand has never proved anything for me, actually, i have a big dislike to him, unlike Hamilton Alonso starts to cry when he dont get his 'deserved' number one spot. How good Alonso is at giving his technical input will be shown next year as then he brings his '6 tenths' to ferrari, but sure, Alonso cant do it alone and the whole ferrari team left, Ferrari has turned to where it was at the 80ies, a whole italian team that cant work together. Alonso didnt show last 2 years that he can give the input, the Renault didnt become any better, it was simply a car that drove at the back of the pack. Last year was quite similair, until renault came with something that gained the 25hp, then it turned into a race winner, but before that the whole season was the same.

@Audifan; have to agree, the Renault had alot of special stuff wich others didnt have, wich made the renault itself alot faster, but when others started to develop harder Renault was nowhere, in 2005 around the 5th race renault wasnt fastest anymore and didnt regain it, 2006 is same the first few races the renault was fastest, but as the season followed the renault wasnt fastest anymore, if Alonsos input to its engineers was so great, how can it be that the fall back throughout the season?

Oh I see, Renault became a winner in 2008 coz they illegally got 25hp more, but McL got better last year coz they developed the car, thanks to LH! yeah, right......


If in 2005 and 2006 Renault already started with pretty optimized car,then of course their development rate will be slower than the others. A car has some limit of how fast it could be, some reach that limit faster, other slower. Those who do it at the beginning of the season, they have advantage. Example, BGP this year.