Alonso technical level

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NormanBates
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Re: Alonso technical level

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sorry, I didn't read the whole thread, but I can't resist adding my two cents

I think Alonso has a very good understanding of what is going on with his car

that impression is based on what I've read, and, specially, on a couple of team radio conversations on some GP in 2008 (don't remember which one; I think nelsinho didn't finnish, but that doesn't help a lot for that season)

around the middle of the race, both renaults were having severe tyre problems, so the team chatted with both drivers, and on Spanish TV I could hear both conversations, with about a couple of minutes of difference from one another; nelsinho said something like "I've got a puncture", telemetry said no, but he insisted; alonso said something to the tune of "I've got some very bad graining in the rear left tyre, on the next pitstop I need more/less pressure in the fronts"

it was like night and day, one driver knew what was happening to his car, the other didn't have a clue

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tarzoon
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Re: Alonso technical level

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ISLAMATRON
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Re: Alonso technical level

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NormanBates wrote:sorry, I didn't read the whole thread, but I can't resist adding my two cents

I think Alonso has a very good understanding of what is going on with his car

that impression is based on what I've read, and, specially, on a couple of team radio conversations on some GP in 2008 (don't remember which one; I think nelsinho didn't finnish, but that doesn't help a lot for that season)

around the middle of the race, both renaults were having severe tyre problems, so the team chatted with both drivers, and on Spanish TV I could hear both conversations, with about a couple of minutes of difference from one another; nelsinho said something like "I've got a puncture", telemetry said no, but he insisted; alonso said something to the tune of "I've got some very bad graining in the rear left tyre, on the next pitstop I need more/less pressure in the fronts"

it was like night and day, one driver knew what was happening to his car, the other didn't have a clue
I hope Alonso didnt say "more/less"... that wouldn't be very helpful :wink:
No doubt Alonso is better than PK Jr... but that is comparing someone with 140 gp's under their belt to someone with say 14?... not exactly fair.

marcush.
marcush.
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Re: Alonso technical level

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well ,to actually talk during driving a car at the limit ,let alone do a analysis of what is going on is beyond the capabilities of most drivers even in F1.You very often see the onboard camera shots in TV -then you hear the talk between Driver and
engineer ,most of the time just engineer babbling useless things....and on the next corner the poor devil misses apex ,locks a wheel on turn in braking or just completely crosses up ...
As the engineer at the wall ,to discuss technical items on the radio is total crap,unless you are under yellow pacecar situation.It is only :necessary information
wich is comunicated.No arguing no speculation non of that.
If the driver has a problem ,he has a problem.The question to ask is :is it getting worse,is it too severe to go on ?.Can he tell which part of the car is not performing?.Bring him in if the times are degrading severely.

Obviously a driver in F1 should know already what graining is and what the consequences are and of course he should already know how a puncture does differ in reaction.But then ,the drivers are not at ease when at the limit and if you ever went racing you surely know just how diffrent a race driver is during and immediatelly after a session compared to normal life .I once had a driver who seriously considered coming into the pits because the watertemperaturegauge failed :lol:
, a race he won with a lead of almost half a lap to the guy in p2.....after the race we spoke about it and he shook his head how he could even think about something silly as that.

Giblet
Giblet
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Re: Alonso technical level

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Ah I see you like to break it down into 5 little mini arguments. Sigh. What are you, Kilcoo in disguise?

I'll play your way, then I will write a real response at the bottom, about Alonso, not about nit picking posts apart.

It also appears you think that I consider Alonso the very best. I am not privy to any info to know that for sure. But to say he is not one of the best is denial at it's very best. I have been reading articles about F1 since the 80's with gusto, and an almost insatiable desire for more. Over all this time, when Alonso showed up, he has grown to be a great driver in front of millions of people in the sport and at home. Where the hell were you?
segedunum wrote:
Giblet wrote:You want your logic to be based in results?
Errrrrr, yes.....including the last two seasons.

That he won races while his teammates skated off track, and rarelly if ever qualified as high up as he did. Schumi should have been canned when he became such a --- drive in 2005 and 2006. They shoukld have binned him. He is rubbish. Oh his car and tires weren't good.....? OH REALLY?!.
Well then that is easy... the opinion of those who have worked with him in F1...
As said, opinions are two a penny, and the same opinions you quote for Alonso that you think that proves his skills in this area are better than others can be wheeled out for at least two other drivers. You have nothing that proves anything I'm afraid. That is all you are basing this on....whatever 'this' happens to be.

Find me ONE quote about Alonso not being one of the best setup people. JUST one. You can't, because the truth is out there. I can continue to find quotes all day to the contrary of your stance.
A result of that skill and opinion, is his choice of drives in just about any team, as the clear number 1, for a large salary, and he has got the dream drive he has always wanted.
Yep, just like McLaren was his dream drive....... Domenicali's comments about what he fears might follow next season don't paint a picture of much of a dream. Just ask Fisi.

What does that have to do with the fact he got has his choice of drives, and has had them since his 2005 title drive. Your lame attempt at quoting Domenicali has nothing to do with this discussion. A more useful quote would be from his engineers who said "We can't wait to start working with Alonso". That's probably because if his pleasant accent and giant eyebrows, I am sure it has nothing to do with them wanting his input on the car :roll:
He's already done it, proven himself, to the world of Formula 1, and is already reaping the rewards.
Nice soundbite, but so have other drivers and he still needs to keep proving himself (as they all do), particularly after 2007.

You're wandering off on an Alonso love-in now though......which is all this thread has turned into.
So calling it a love in will somehow help your argument? I could have a giant picture on my wall of Alonso over my bed, but that would change the fact that he is a really good setup/technical/development driver.

Once you start attacking the poster and the way I post, you can tell you have nothing to go on.

Again, still waiting on one quote, or anything outside of your conjecture and opinion about weaknesses in Alonso's ability to develop a car.

I understand what ISLAMATRON is saying, even if I don't agree. I have no idea where you are headed, as you don't have a point other than the whole of F1 is wrong, or I need to quote EVERYONE in F1 to convince you.

I respect what he says, just not always how he says it. He wants nothing but results in the score sheet, and that is where we disagree.

-----------------This is what I had typed before i realized it is pointless to argue someone who just argues whatever is posted, and not the facts.


Alonso never said Mclaren was his dream team, you just said that. Where did you get that info from? Made it up?

But he has said, more than once, before and after signing with Ferrari, that his dream was to one day drive for the prancing horse. All he said about Mclaren was he likes how they develop the car.

The quotes I did find were just a few, I figure that you would be smart enough to figure that it was not just the opinion of the couple of quotes I have found. I have yet to find a quote from anyone but you or ISLAMATRON about Alonso being anything but rated very highly in the areas of technical ability I said.

You have offered nothing to the contrary, just the kind of moronic argument anyone in denial would give.

I could go find one quote about why Schumi was so devastatingly quick in the cockpit, and you would want more quotes.

I am not in love with Alonso, but I can see a good technical driver unlike you.

Seriously, you can be more wrong, but why bother trying. Offer a fact about his ability. Just one, and you might have leg to stand on.

I have done more then enough to start to prove what everyone in F1 thinks about Alonso.

You can tell me I have not done enough, but you continue to do nothing.
Before I do anything I ask myself “Would an idiot do that?” And if the answer is yes, I do not do that thing. - Dwight Schrute

Rod_in_Chile
Rod_in_Chile
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Re: Alonso technical level

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I may be wrong in my opinion but it seems the purpose of starting this thread was actually to attack Alonso, for real of imaged participation in the Singapore incident

Richard
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Re: Alonso technical level

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Rod_in_Chile wrote:I may be wrong in my opinion but it seems the purpose of starting this thread was actually to attack Alonso, for real of imaged participation in the Singapore incident
err... no it isn't

Read the first page, then the second , and so on .....

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Chaparral
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Re: Alonso technical level

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Giblet wrote:Prost wasn't afraid of Senna, but he has acknowledged in a recent interview that he knew he could not beat Senna with Honda behind him in Mclaren. His biggest flaw, like he says Ron Dennis would likely agree, was he put the team before himself.

He was asked by the team who he would like them to sign, Piquet, or that Senna kid. He knew saying Piquet would likely deliver him another title, but he nodded Senna as that what was best for the team.

Reminds me of me. Putting others first before myself, naturally and often to my own detriment. Ever present empathy is not always a good thing.
Gib that would be from the Motor Sport Oct 2008 issue - I re-read the article again the other day - I was lucky enough to see both men race - Senna as you would expect pushed the boundaries and the professor was complete. With regards to this thread if you asked the F1 jockeys on the grid today who was the most complete driver the majority Im certain would say Alonso - complete racer who pushed the german guy to the edge and won 2 WDC's in a car he helped develop over the 2004-2006 period - then went to Mclaren (wrong move as Hamilton was the favoured son) and came back to a under developed Renault team - he can help set up a car but he cant work miracles - yet will drive his arse off in any case - never stops trying - you cant ask for more than that no?
The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free and good men die like dogs - there's also the negative side' - Hunter S Thompson

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raceman
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Re: Alonso technical level

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Chaparral wrote:With regards to this thread if you asked the F1 jockeys on the grid today who was the most complete driver the majority Im certain would say Alonso - complete racer who pushed the german guy to the edge and won 2 WDC's in a car he helped develop over the 2004-2006 period - then went to Mclaren (wrong move as Hamilton was the favoured son) and came back to a under developed Renault team - he can help set up a car but he cant work miracles - yet will drive his arse off in any case - never stops trying - you cant ask for more than that no?
+100

Exactly.

but hey Presto, you know, we will have another two or three pages of arguments on the above quote. eh? :wink:

vall
vall
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Re: Alonso technical level

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raceman wrote:
Chaparral wrote:With regards to this thread if you asked the F1 jockeys on the grid today who was the most complete driver the majority Im certain would say Alonso - complete racer who pushed the german guy to the edge and won 2 WDC's in a car he helped develop over the 2004-2006 period - then went to Mclaren (wrong move as Hamilton was the favoured son) and came back to a under developed Renault team - he can help set up a car but he cant work miracles - yet will drive his arse off in any case - never stops trying - you cant ask for more than that no?
+100

Exactly.

but hey Presto, you know, we will have another two or three pages of arguments on the above quote. eh? :wink:
... and I have hard time to guess who will be leading it :-k

Giblet
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Re: Alonso technical level

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Chaparral wrote:
Giblet wrote:Prost wasn't afraid of Senna, but he has acknowledged in a recent interview that he knew he could not beat Senna with Honda behind him in Mclaren. His biggest flaw, like he says Ron Dennis would likely agree, was he put the team before himself.

He was asked by the team who he would like them to sign, Piquet, or that Senna kid. He knew saying Piquet would likely deliver him another title, but he nodded Senna as that what was best for the team.

Reminds me of me. Putting others first before myself, naturally and often to my own detriment. Ever present empathy is not always a good thing.
Gib that would be from the Motor Sport Oct 2008 issue - I re-read the article again the other day - I was lucky enough to see both men race - Senna as you would expect pushed the boundaries and the professor was complete. With regards to this thread if you asked the F1 jockeys on the grid today who was the most complete driver the majority Im certain would say Alonso - complete racer who pushed the german guy to the edge and won 2 WDC's in a car he helped develop over the 2004-2006 period - then went to Mclaren (wrong move as Hamilton was the favoured son) and came back to a under developed Renault team - he can help set up a car but he cant work miracles - yet will drive his arse off in any case - never stops trying - you cant ask for more than that no?
Yes, true about the Motorsport issue (good to see others read outside the internets as well) it gave a lot of good insight. I was a pretty new F1 fan then and was enthralled with Senna. It was hard to appreciate Prost's genius when put beside Senna. I wish I had started watching a few years earlier, but Motorsport has made it feel like I was there. Whether reading about Clark, or Jim Hunt, or any of the drivers that are legends. Ever little mistake and triumph drivers of old made were written about. not every single soundbit was available on youtube to disseminate.

Work ethic is one of the most important things. The guys at work who might not be very smart (laborers) but work twice as hard never get laid off. You can forgive small personality foibles if the person is always working hard.

Sutil for example has shown that he is blistering fast sometimes, especially in the rain, which everyone knows shows a truly talented driver. He also has a reputation for being a little lazy.

Who knows, maybe he would have been the next Schumi, but the wrong personality installed who really cares if he is? A strong technical driver might be someone who pours over the data twice as much to get it. Hard work can make up for a lot.
Before I do anything I ask myself “Would an idiot do that?” And if the answer is yes, I do not do that thing. - Dwight Schrute

Rod_in_Chile
Rod_in_Chile
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Re: Alonso technical level

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richard_leeds wrote:
Rod_in_Chile wrote:I may be wrong in my opinion but it seems the purpose of starting this thread was actually to attack Alonso, for real of imaged participation in the Singapore incident
err... no it isn't

Read the first page, then the second , and so on .....

as I said I may be wrong, I based my assumption on who started the thread, who is arguing most strongly the case against and numerous post referring to Singapore.
Apart from that there are some interesting opinions both for and against.
Personally my opinion is that Alonso has a high technical level in giving feedback to engineers on development parts, set up, and understanding his car's behaviour sufficiently to be able to vary his driving style to drive around problems during races.

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ISLAMATRON
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Joined: 01 Oct 2008, 18:29

Re: Alonso technical level

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Rod_in_Chile wrote:
richard_leeds wrote:
Rod_in_Chile wrote:I may be wrong in my opinion but it seems the purpose of starting this thread was actually to attack Alonso, for real of imaged participation in the Singapore incident
err... no it isn't

Read the first page, then the second , and so on .....

as I said I may be wrong, I based my assumption on who started the thread, who is arguing most strongly the case against and numerous post referring to Singapore.
Apart from that there are some interesting opinions both for and against.
Personally my opinion is that Alonso has a high technical level in giving feedback to engineers on development parts, set up, and understanding his car's behaviour sufficiently to be able to vary his driving style to drive around problems during races.
What you are missing is that this thread was created by Ciro(a mod), by seperating a previous thread into two threads. Mine just happened to be the post he decided to start the new thread with.

No doubt Alonso has a high technical level, I hope so after nearly a decade in F1, but for him to say he can step in the car and make it 6 tenths quicker is absurd(the context of the Alonso 6 tenths comment was his pre X-mas McLaren test where he was allowed by renault to test the old McLaren and somehow his input in that old car Magically made the new car(which was pretty much fully designed) 6 tenths quicker).

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Mr Alcatraz
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Re: Alonso technical level

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Chaparral wrote:
Giblet wrote:Prost wasn't afraid of Senna, but he has acknowledged in a recent interview that he knew he could not beat Senna with Honda behind him in Mclaren. His biggest flaw, like he says Ron Dennis would likely agree, was he put the team before himself.

He was asked by the team who he would like them to sign, Piquet, or that Senna kid. He knew saying Piquet would likely deliver him another title, but he nodded Senna as that what was best for the team.

Reminds me of me. Putting others first before myself, naturally and often to my own detriment. Ever present empathy is not always a good thing.
Gib that would be from the Motor Sport Oct 2008 issue - I re-read the article again the other day - I was lucky enough to see both men race - Senna as you would expect pushed the boundaries and the professor was complete. With regards to this thread if you asked the F1 jockeys on the grid today who was the most complete driver the majority Im certain would say Alonso - complete racer who pushed the german guy to the edge and won 2 WDC's in a car he helped develop over the 2004-2006 period - then went to Mclaren (wrong move as Hamilton was the favoured son) and came back to a under developed Renault team - he can help set up a car but he cant work miracles - yet will drive his arse off in any case - never stops trying - you cant ask for more than that no?
Nice post Chap'
How long have the Brits and Spaniards been fighting?
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Chaparral
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Re: Alonso technical level

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Whether reading about Clark, or Jim Hunt, or any of the drivers that are legends. Ever little mistake and triumph drivers of old made were written about. not every single soundbit was available on youtube to disseminate.
Gib this will show my age but Ive been blessed - I saw the 60s legends race in the Tasman Series of 67 & 68 downunder as a teenager @ Warwick Farm, Surfers Paradise and Lakeside in their 2.5 litre scaled down F1 machines from those years - these are the drivers that played a part in that series:

Jim Clark
Jochen Rindt
Chris Amon
Piers Courage
Frank Gardner
Graham Hill
Bruce McLaren
Pedro Rodriguez
Denny Hulme
Jack Brabham
Richard Attwood

Alonso Senna Prost and a number of others would have fitted into the mould if they'd raced in that period.

Warwick Farm 1968 I was on the causeway a great viewing position.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNhYNzBd-t0

Surfers Paradise - I was seated on the mound just past the Dunlop bridge off the straight - frightening as many went in flat - I remember meeting Warwick Brown who briefly raced F1 but was a hero in F5000 he came under that bridge at over 160 mph something broke and he ended up with two broken legs snapped at right angles and bones protruding - I came across him two years back hes still crazy as a cut snake and can still drive a race car fast :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFHS7_vfGUM&feature=fvw

Lakeside - but this is 1969 I missed this race but it gives you an idea of who and what raced.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhrgLi2bBS8

Anyway thats well off topic but hope its enjoyable and educational:)
The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free and good men die like dogs - there's also the negative side' - Hunter S Thompson