Ferrari all set to showcase 599 Hybrid and GTO

[Giblet]

I just read on the Rotodyne last night, and the 96 decibel number was the one that was demanded by the UK gov, but the 106 AT TAKE OFF with it's jet tipped rotors was 10 orders of magnitude too high.

"Fairey talked up expressions of interest from BEA in the UK, New York Airways and the US Army, but the critical launch order never came. British governemt policy to rationalize the industry saw the end of the Rotodyne and Fairey as an airframe maker in 1962". - "The World's Worst Aircraft - From Pioneering Failures to Multimillion Dollar Disasters", Jim Winchester.

I was just going off the history books sorry

I did not think you'd really take the bait.

However I do stand corrected (EDIT: those two little letters make a world of difference) about the KERS limitation being Mosley's fault. Williams never even used KERS and they are the ones developing it commercially now.

[Ciro Pabón]

On thread, please.

[ISLAMATRON]

High performance ICE's are good for high top end power, but not so good for low end torque, which is what electric motors are great for... plus it is a much lighter way to get AWD.

Although the 599 is front engined(and therefore not the best platform for AWD hybrid), a midengined sportscar is a much better option. And Ferrari has to consider it before they are blindsided by their competition that destroys them with it and they are caught with their pants down. McLaren will definityly incorperate it soon.

And have any of you tried to order some fast food from the drive thru in an all out sportscar? The loudness of the engine makes it impossible.

Plus electric power steering and A/C drops alot of weight and lets alot more of the power get to the wheels where it is supposed to be.

[Giblet]

I think a Ferrari engine tuned almost entirely for top end, since the electric motor could take of the low end, would sound absolutely EPIC.

[mx_tifoso]

And have any of you tried to order some fast food from the drive through in an all out sportscar? The loudness of the engine makes it impossible.

All out riced/tuned or OEM? That makes all the difference in most cases. As well if it either has electric or a belt driven cooling fan. My V8 has a belt driven one and is worlds apart in sound compared to my dads new V8 with dual electrics, the latter being really quite except for minimal noise when the fans are on the highest speed.

I attended a track event as a spectator today and a lot of the sports cars which hadn't been messed around with too much weren't too loud, besides the usual exhaust burble while idling. Not even supercars are loud; the Veyron is almost too quite!

KERS wouldn't change the 599 all that much, as road car KERS isn't all that complex. Although as it stands there's not much information about what sort of hybrid system this car will actually have.

Take the KERS in the current BMW E9X 3-series, here's BMW's explanation of their regenerative braking system:

Make use of every Watt: by charging the battery only when your BMW is braking, coasting or decelerating, Brake Energy Regeneration improves fuel efficiency by up to three percent and ensures that the full power of your engine is available for acceleration.

Today's vehicles require much more electrical energy than older models, due to the much wider array of electric and electronic on-board comfort and safety systems. This energy is created by the generator (also known as the alternator) which converts the engine's power output into electricity. In conventional systems, the generator is permanently driven by a belt connected to the engine.
BMW's Brake Energy Regeneration operates differently: the generator is activated only when you take your foot from the accelerator or apply the brake. The kinetic energy that would otherwise go to waste is now used efficiently, converted into electricity by the generator and stored in the battery.

Producing electricity in this highly efficient way delivers an additional advantage: when you apply the accelerator, the generator is deactivated - so the full power of the engine can be directed to the drive wheels. Brake Energy Regeneration thus increases fuel efficiency while simultaneously enhancing driving dynamics. As a safety precaution, the Brake Energy Regeneration system monitors the level of battery charge and will, if necessary, continue to charge the battery even during acceleration to prevent a complete discharging of the battery."

BMW Technology Guide: Brake Energy Regeneration


To the OP, why not include a link to the source so that readers can get a more clear understanding of what is to be discussed? Why start construction without a proper foundation?

[christopher.mahlon]

You guys are missing an important point here, I think. Given their druthers, Ferrari wouldn't be bothering with something like this-- my guess, at least. However governments around the world are cracking down on emissions standards and fuel efficiency in general. The easiest way to lower your per kilometer emissions is to increase the fuel mileage. Of course there are tons of emerging markets that don't have these pesky standards to adhere to, but the capacity of those markets doesn't come near close enough to justify ignoring the fuel/emission standards. This hybrid stuff is pretty much the same thing that Aston Martin is doing with the Cygnet; a car that the purists will hate that helps keep the company going.

[WhiteBlue]

I think that Ferrari is on the back foot with the McLaren MP4-12C coming in next year. The McLaren is heralded as the pinnacle of performance and efficiency (due to revolutionary light weight design) at "normal" super sports car prices. Ferrari are not likely to be able to react by stuctural design philosophy changes immediately. They may have no choice but go hybrid to alleviate the impact on their margins. If McLaren is successful Ferrari's premium brand image is under attack which will erode their pricing power.

[autogyro]

Ferrari have a huge problem in justifying 'hybrid' 'green' development and applying such Kers systems to their road cars.
The Ferrari out and out performance image will suffer, no matter what the benefits of the technology.
Mr brrrm brrrm dies not like it, ask Clarkson and the other motor mouths.
Other 'supercar' makers do not have anywhere near as much to loose.
This is the reason why Ferrari forced the birth of FOTA and drove out Kers from F1. It is also why Max retired from F1 involvment in disgust.
The oil companies can laugh all the way to the bank for at least another decade.
We now have great long racing trains full of fuel running standardized ic engines, instead of leading edge racing machines with efficient energy systems.
From what I have found out so far, Ferrari has NO intention of applying Kers to a production car inside five years!! Even then they will be dragged.
Their systems are just not mature or efficient enough anyway and without F1 development and comparable budgets it will be a long time before they are.
Williams could not get their Kers system based on heavy flywheel storage, driven by an inefficient toroidal CVT linkage, to even match the basic battery bolt on dynamo/motor first generation systems used by all the others. This is why they are franticaly trying to recoup the development millions, selling their systems into industry and heavy haulage. There must be engineers even more naive in these industries than in F1.
The Ferrari 599 Kers is simply a marketing experiment that proves absolutely nothing.

[Edis]

I don't see how it's any more ridiculous than an Escalade or Highlander hybrid which have practically no mpg improvement to show for it. It's basically a power boost on those, why shouldn't Ferrari give it a shot?

And here's hoping it ends up on a US-spec Fiat 500.

Escalade hybrid, which uses the jointly developed two mode hybrid system, offer quite a significant fuel saving over the non hybrid version. Infact, the greatest fuel saving can be achieved on cars like these. The fuel saved on a smaller car is much smaller, even though the actual fuel consumption of course is lower.

'Hybrid' is a very broad definition. It can be anything from a combined starter alternator with a light power boost and some kinetic energy recovery during coasting and deceleration to an electric vehicle with an onboard generator powered by an internal combustion engine.

I think that Ferrari is on the back foot with the McLaren MP4-12C coming in next year. The McLaren is heralded as the pinnacle of performance and efficiency (due to revolutionary light weight design) at "normal" super sports car prices. Ferrari are not likely to be able to react by stuctural design philosophy changes immediately. They may have no choice but go hybrid to alleviate the impact on their margins. If McLaren is successful Ferrari's premium brand image is under attack which will erode their pricing power.

Engine downsizing is the key to the fuel efficiency of the McLaren.

The McLaren is only about 5% lighter than a Ferrari 458, the fuel efficiency gain by that weight difference is not that significant.

[Confused_Andy]

To the OP, why not include a link to the source so that readers can get a more clear understanding of what is to be discussed? Why start construction without a proper foundation?

Its not my thread, the original post got deleted so now I take credit for it lol.

It was just some bot doing the spam rounds.

[Belatti]

Engine downsizing is the key to the fuel efficiency of the McLaren.

The McLaren is only about 5% lighter than a Ferrari 458, the fuel efficiency gain by that weight difference is not that significant.

But Ferrari is downsizing, too...

[Confused_Andy]

Forget a Mclaren i'd rather have that little beast. Looks stunning.

[Giblet]

If they do it right, the purists might change their tune.

If they don't they might want to change their stone underwear so it doesn't break when they fall off their dinosaur. They won't stop selling petrol only cars until said dino juice runs dry.

People like me, that love motor racing, and the planet, would choose to buy this car over a regular 599, so long as no performance was taken away.

It could even possibly add to the performance. This is entirely possible. The image I saw told me nothing about the system, and I have to see anything other than a CG top view image, with on info.

Is there any links with info? Plus, is it a show car, ie concept only?

[donskar]

Guys, some of your comments are a little over the top.

Why a "green" Ferrari? Because Ferrari is a technology company. Don't like that one? Then how about, because it's good PR. And it's good branding/marketing. No arguing with that.

McLaren scares Ferrari? Sure, so does Bugatti and Spyker, and Koenigsegg (SP?) and Noble. Terrifies them.

Among the many reasons people buy Ferraris -- and one of the most important -- is the name. Buying a Ferrari buys you a piece of the legend. Everyone knows Ferrari is a living legend of speed and beauty. The McLaren could well be a better car overall, but it will take a LONG time to develop the mythic quality Ferrari has created.

"Hey, Joe. I just bought a Ferrari."
"Wow!"

"Hey, Joe. I just bought a McLaren."
"A what?"

In two of my several careers -- dot-com startups and the car biz -- a Rolex was THE watch to have. AND the people who wear them know that they are nothing special in terms of accuracy. But they have no equal as a status symbol. The same is true of Ferrari: they don't have to build THE VERY BEST car -- just excellent ones that continue to build on the legend.

All of you had good points. But we are not and never have been Ferrari's target market. Enzo said (paraphrasing): "I regret that by the time a man can afford my cars, they are too old to drive them as they are meant to be driven."

[Belatti]

I really like Ferraris but if I could afford them I would have "only" the F40, F50 and Enzo kind of Ferraris, if you know what I mean... and maybe because of my love a 288GTO.

Then, for the price of any other Ferrari I would have thousands of other better and cheaper cars. Cars like the 599 or the 456 are crap to my eyes... I prefer a Subaru Imprezza 22B... or 10 Subarus to play with friends for that price