Is Vettel overrated? What do you think

[strad]

So we are back to square one. Vettel has more reliability faults so he must be a car breaker. I do not accept that as fact but keep calling it opinion.

See...All you ever think you have to do is not accept the facts. Keep not accepting all you want..Break out one of your graphs why don't you?
Your boy tears stuff up.

[WhiteBlue]

See...All you ever think you have to do is not accept the facts.....

Strad, since you address me I take the liberty to answer.

May I remind you that it was ringo who remembered smoke and jumped to the conclusion that the reason for Vettel's DNF in Valencia 2009 was a busted gearbox. It turned out the gearbox smashing wasn't fact but opinion on his behalf.

I researched the case because I remembered it as a Renault engine failure. It turned out I was actually right. There had been two prior fuel pump failures in that race which had thrown Sebastion to the back of the field and he was solidly out of the points when finally his engine failed in clouds of smoke.

Other sources speculated at that time that the Red Bull cooling arrangement had something to do with the engine failures because the works team never had such a problem. Red Bull had several engines blown that season.

Nevertheless the 2009 Valencia DNF was obviously a reliability problem and not related to rough kerb hopping as ringo had thought. I think I had every right to question that "fact" as it turned out to be an error. If you give me better reasons for criticizing me I might possibly agree with you but on this one you get no joy.

[rayden]

w/b it seems the key facts behind the foundation of your argument have changed, see we now have a bit more info:

'There is Horner's order to Pilbeam. I understand this was not passed on because Pilbeam was preoccupied with something else at the time.'

so not a deliberate sabotage of team orders by pilbeam then.

'Red Bull said after the race that Webber had asked the team to slow Vettel down. But that is not accurate. Having noticed Vettel was quicker than him on the straight, Webber had actually asked whether Vettel was on the same engine settings as him.'

fair enough question don't you think? strange one from horner, why the disinformation?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/andrewbenson ... .html#more

in light of these new facts, do you still have the same stance?

I realise this post should probably be in another thread, but i feel these facts are fundamental to the argument happening in here.

[WhiteBlue]

rayden, the "new" information has been around for more than 24 hours.

Are you really surprised that eventually after more than a week an attempt is made to explain Cerion Pilbeam's strange behavior. So we are led to believe that he was occupied with something more important than his team principal's oder for two laps of the race? Still he found the time to communicate the exact opposite of what he was supposed to say immediately when Vettel took the dive to the inside. I see absolutely zero credibility in this "explanation". It is obviously nothing but a smokescreen.

The attempt to change the previously reported conversation between Webber and the team regarding Vettel making pressure is of the same dubious quality. Who knows what really was said. There is no published record so far for either version and frankly spoken either way it would not make much of a difference. All we can say with 100% certainty is that Pilbeam told Webber to push the overtaking button instead of telling him not to fight Vettel. This conversation is recorded in the FOM Highlights of the race and everybody can listen to it. Perhaps the other Webber/Pilbeam radio messages will also be released one day and we will know.

I see no reason to change my opinion on what went down at Red Bull. Marko is the only guy who has from the first minute of the crash to the present day always told the same story. It is very likely the truth:

Vettel was faster. Red Bull (Marko & Horner) realized it and told both race engineers to pass the team order. Pilbeam send the opposite message and Vettel thought his team mate would cooperate which he didn't. Crash and tons of discussions.

[myurr]

Just going to pick up on two points:

Who knows what really was said. There is no published record so far for either version and frankly spoken either way it would not make much of a difference.

Well frankly the people who know what was really said were the team - the same team that have been briefing against their own and changing their position on a daily basis, and also the same team that has supplied all the information your version of events is based upon. You cannot pick and choose which bits of info you wish to believe about this and treat them as fact when they all effectively come from the same source.

Marko is the only guy who has from the first minute of the crash to the present day always told the same story. It is very likely the truth

The problem for me is that he clearly lied in his very first interview after the event by giving two contradictory answers to two questions:

1. He first claims that the team lost a guaranteed one two finish.

2. He then goes on to claim that if Vettel had not have passed Webber then Hamilton would have overtaken him.

The only way in which one of these statements would not be a lied would be if, despite Vettel being the supposedly faster car, Webber was somehow better equipped to keep Hamilton behind him.

I understand that you see him in a different light but I have nothing but contempt for Dr Marko. He's shown himself to be a highly political operator who, much like Max Mosely (another we have strongly differing opinions on) is happy to brief against people, even in his own team, leak information to journalists that supports his agenda. He has a clear agenda for the advancement of Vettel's career, including in preference of Webber's, and he seems willing to do or say anything that is required to give Vettel the greatest possible chance of winning the championship.

[strad]

W/B said

I researched the case because I remembered it as a Renault engine failure. It turned out I was actually right. There had been two prior fuel pump failures in that race which had thrown Sebastion to the back of the field and he was solidly out of the points when finally his engine failed in clouds of smoke.

Other sources speculated at that time that the Red Bull cooling arrangement had something to do with the engine failures because the works team never had such a problem. Red Bull had several engines blown that season.

Let ya in on a little secret...it was really them running the engines too lean which is also what burned up your boy Vettles spark plug..that one wasn't his fault.

[strad]

You do know that the Renaults fuel efficiency is speculated to bring the Renaults and the Red Bulls to the line as much as 22lbs (10kg) lighter than the others which would be worth about 3 tenths. don't you?

[WhiteBlue]

Well frankly the people who know what was really said were the team - the same team that have been briefing against their own and changing their position on a daily basis, and also the same team that has supplied all the information your version of events is based upon. You cannot pick and choose which bits of info you wish to believe about this and treat them as fact when they all effectively come from the same source.

I agree that Horner isn't sounding reliable but all the crucial info never came from him.

Marko is the only guy who has from the first minute of the crash to the present day always told the same story. It is very likely the truth

The problem for me is that he clearly lied in his very first interview after the event by giving two contradictory answers to two questions:

1. He first claims that the team lost a guaranteed one two finish.

2. He then goes on to claim that if Vettel had not have passed Webber then Hamilton would have overtaken him.

The only way in which one of these statements would not be a lied would be if, despite Vettel being the supposedly faster car, Webber was somehow better equipped to keep Hamilton behind him.

Actually I would like to see the original quotations which support your claim that Marko lied. I am not aware of that and I speak both languages that were used to make statements. My personal opinion of Marko is very low in terms of his ability to make solid decisions on driver selection and team management. That is based on the fact that he clashed with people like Sauber and Berger who definitely know what they do.

On the other hand I have no reason to question his personal integrity. He may be a fool but so far he looks like an honest fool. So before I would agree to your judgement on the man I would like to see the exact quotations that you refer to.

... I have nothing but contempt for Dr Marko. He's shown himself to be a highly political operator who, much like Max Mosely (another we have strongly differing opinions on) is happy to brief against people, even in his own team, leak information to journalists that supports his agenda. He has a clear agenda for the advancement of Vettel's career, including in preference of Webber's...

I would like to see some facts that support your assessment of Marko. I do not follow you on those two points. Marko has clearly been upset that the team order was not followed and frankly in his shoes I would be pissed off as well. The only bit of Red Bull team radio that we have, fully supports Marko's statements. So perhaps you let us know what he did and said to justify your judgement.

[WhiteBlue]

... sources speculated at that time that the Red Bull cooling arrangement had something to do with the engine failures because the works team never had such a problem. Red Bull had several engines blown that season.

Let ya in on a little secret...it was really them running the engines too lean which is also what burned up your boy Vettles spark plug..that one wasn't his fault.

Thanks Strad, that is a plausible explanation. I will take that on board.

[Mysticf1]

RBR story has changed once again...no order to let Vettel past from Horner apparently...team now admit blaming Webber was a mistake.

[raymondu999]

I'm not doubting the authenticity of Andrew Benson's blog, but where did he get the info? He doesn't seem to quote any sources...

[raymondu999]

I think someone made an absolutely valid point to me today, that absolute power corrupts absolutely. We know that Vettel is supremely fast, and I doubt anyone can doubt that. We know from 2008/2009 that he is an extremely likeable guy though, very nice and upbeat, and a breath of fresh air. But he has now a car that delivers supreme laptimes in the RB6, and that seems to corrupt him.

It almost makes me wish he'd done what Schumi did in 1996 and joined a struggling team (perhaps such as HRT/Lotus?) and helped to build the team from the ground up, playing a major role in the car's design, and building the team around him. I think that would do him a lot of good for character development as a driver.

Also, spending some time in reverse grid racing series such as GP2 wouldn't have hurt his racecraft either.

[Pup]

It almost makes me wish he'd done what Schumi did in 1996 and joined a struggling team (perhaps such as HRT/Lotus?) and helped to build the team from the ground up, playing a major role in the car's design, and building the team around him.

I think that's exactly what he did, isn't it? Red Bull is his team, and he's got a car this season that can do the job. But he's choking when it matters the most, letting his less talented team mate take the glory.

[strad]

Vettle is just too immature to be at the top rung. He seems to only run well if he is out front and running free...Almost reminds me of Ralf,,who for all the joking could drive fast but couldn't race for nuthin,,not a brain in his pointy head,,Vettel is much the same,,,Unless he were to go thru some metamorphosis I don't think he'll be a champion.

[segedunum]

I'm afraid we simply have to question Vettel's ability in traffic yet again. Like Webber he simply seems to make completely the wrong decisions about whether to go to the inside, the outside or simply leave himself in position for the next corner.

I know people keep talking about Vettel maturing. I'm afraid that's tough. This is Formula 1. As Coulthard said once, it is not a finishing school. If he's not the finished article then he needed to spend more time in other formulas.