Promotion, and relegation on bbc news

[Spencifer_Murphy]

It is an interesting idea....but why cant Max stop thinking of sooo many for once?! How about we settle for a bit, get used to the already huge amounts of new ideas that he wants to implement, THEN try this one?

[DaveKillens]

We need to step back and look at the larger picture. The Concorde Agreement expires in two years, and Max is trying to hammer out some new rules now.
At present, the teams are split into very distinct groups, those who have already signed, and those who are holding out. With the exception of Ferrari, the reluctant teams are major auto manufacturers, Mercedes, BMW, Renault, Honda and Toyota. Obviously, they don't agree with Max's vision of the future.
So from the perspective of the major hold-outs, Max has come out with some comments that are forcing a showdown. Major teams should get a much smaller piece of the pie, to allow smaller and more poorly funded teams more FIA cash. The possibility of being sent down to F2 if you have a dismal season. Auditing to enforce a limit on spending. Just to name a few.
I believe Max is trying to force a showdown now, instead of down the road, in an attempt to get everyone to agree with his new replacement for the Concorde. It's called hard bargaining. Max offers crap, the teams counter by asking for removal of some of the rediculous rules. He agrees, they sign, and life goes on....

[RH1300S]

Just though I would add this - thank you AutoSport

A perspective:

By Michele Lostia Thursday, February 16th 2006, 10:43 GMT


Durango co-owner Ivone Pinton says Max Mosley's idea of a promotion-relegation system for Formula One is "completely unworkable".

Mosley has proposed a soccer-style scheme for Formula One, and believes the system could be introduced if proposals to cut costs in the sport lead to more entries than there are vacancies on the grid.

The FIA president himself, however, admitted the idea was far from becoming a reality.

Pinton, whose team compete in the GP2 series, believes it would be almost impossible for a team like his to move to Formula One due to the huge differences in requirements, both financial and logistical.

A GP2 team spend around $5 million a year while Formula One would require at least 20 times that for a season.

"Today you can spend up to four million euros for one season ," Pinton told Gazzetta dello Sport. "To move to 100 millions to race in F1, assuming you won the GP2 championship, would be like a jump into the void.

"Who can find, between the end of October and January, 100 million euros, and transform the structure into a company with at least 70 employees, with the addition of a wind tunnel?

"I would do it if I had the guarantee - which no one will give me - of a free supply of engines, plus a contribution from the FIA or Ecclestone of 20-25 million euros. Otherwise I wouldn't take that risk. Mosley's proposal is curious, but completely unworkable."

[Scuderia_Russ]

We need to step back and look at the larger picture. The Concorde Agreement expires in two years, and Max is trying to hammer out some new rules now.

Exactly Dave! Just because Mosely is putting all of these ideas out there doesn't mean that they are all going to be implemented. Mosely is the prseident of the F.I.A. From what people say you would think that he sat in a room thinking up ways how to change the rules about. Well he doesn't. The guy has got a tough job to do. (One he doesn't get paid for I might add!) With the growing environmental pressure in todays already tetchy financial climate, he has to consider these factors while keeping the sport rich and vibrant as well as keeping all parties concerned happy. People whinge about Mosely saying he's not doing his job properly and the F.I.A. don't listen. Then when he puts ideas out there from the Technical Working Group and advisors then these people continue to moan that he wants to change the rules. Well newsflash people. Cost cutting is essential... rule changes are essential. The 2008 Concorde agreement has to be agreed in a very short time,and rule changes before '08 need 18 months notice. With the vulture manufacturers trying to suck the blood from Formula One always wanting more, more, more... drastic changes are going to happen. People don't seem to understand that because the manufacturers have held the sport to ransom, basically saying pay us more money and run the sport to our regs. Mosely has no choice but to cut costs so that other teams casn easily fill the gap they will leave when they chew up F1 and spit it back out again when they have had enough. If Mosely allowed them to do this he would be irresponsible for not having the foresight to let it happen. But because he's having to cut costs and make changes now he's also the bad guy.
Manufacturers do what suits them, and if F1 is to prosper then the costs have to drop so that independants can survive. If the manufacturers don't like the rules then hopefully they will sod off and start their own championship, taking all the people that whine about Mosely with them because I for one am sick of hearing it!

[monkeyboy1976]

Well put Scuderia_Russ.
Max is trying to open up the sport a bit and make it cheaper. Nothing wrong in that. It what the sport needs. The manufacturers have helped kick start this properly I think.
Remember that no one really labasts Bernie. He is a good guy in most peoples eyes, which I don't fully understand why. His company is taking far too much out of the sport and not putting enough back in.
Manufacturers come and go as is their right. The sport needs to have a framework to survive that. That is what Max is trying to achieve.

[manchild]

Trying to make it cheeper?

By forcing teams to design new V8 engines instead of inforcing simple air restrictors for V10s?

I could make 22 effective air restrictors in my workshop in one day and all of them together couldn't cost more than few euros!

What are we talking about here...?! Mosley's ideas have completey different intentions that ones he officialy presents.

Why do you trust the guy after so many moves that proved his ideas as very bad an ineffective? Just look back what happend in previous years and compare that with what changes imposed by Mosley promised and you'll see that the guy is one huge fake.

Already in testing V8 outperformed V10 engines so all that Max inforced for 2006 has failed to make F1 cheeper just as 99% things he suggetsed before.

[monkeyboy1976]

It totally agree with the V8 thing. That was a mistake. I just think that the 2008 concorde agreement needs to be sorted. Bernie needs to sort the financial stuff, Max needs to sort the tech/sporting stuff, the manufacturers need to agree to all of it. The rules, regs and finance then need to be stabilised for a good long while. Only then can us fans really enjoy seeing great designers and eningeers using their amazing skills to produce beautiful fast cars driven on the ragged edge by inspiring and talented drivers. Admittedly this happens now and it is faciniating but I am sick and bloody tired of politics! OK, some controversy and arguing is good, that's natural in a sport filled will highly motivated and competitive individuals. But, please... Max, Bernie and the teams, PLEASE stop arsing about with our sport and come to some agreement!!!!!

and..... relax.

[mcdenife]

At issue is the governance of the sport and Max's little political schemings so much so that regulations seem to have become a weapon or tool to achieve a political aim.
Cutting costs may be essential but you cant legislate or cap it in as much as a team has to operate in a commercial enviroment. You may make the components yourself but you still have to buy the materials/processess etc. As Max himself put it:

The FIA can’t stop people spending money – we know that – but we can reduce their need to spend,” ..

The manufacturers are not the problem. You dont have to be a manufacturer to want to win and spend money doing so if you have or can get it. Blaming the manufacturers is just a smokescreen and convenient. The FIA itself is the problem. One example, amonst too many to mention: Can anyone explain why or how a sport regulatory body can have a participant of the sport as a member its governing body. You dont need to look far to understand the reason why there is such antagonsim/suspicions towards the FIA.

[Scuderia_Russ]

Can anyone explain why or how a sport regulatory body can have a participant of the sport as a member its governing body.

? You've lost me.

[manchild]

Can anyone explain why or how a sport regulatory body can have a participant of the sport as a member its governing body.

? You've lost me.

Jean Todt

[mcdenife]

cheers manchild

[mcdenife]

conflict of interest do not get any more blatant than that.

[Scuderia_Russ]

Exactly what position does Jean Todt hold in the F.I.A?

[manchild]

Jean Todt is member of FIA World Motor Sport Council, one of 23 members and his role is representing the Constructors in F1 matters (FIA appointed him on that position - not the consutructors because they don't support him and they've never assigned him to represent them)


That is the same Council that has put Michelin teams on trial in 2005 and found tham guilty. No need to mention that JT is said to become president of FIA once Mosley's retires (never).

BTW, Deputy President of World Motor Sport Council is Marco Piccinini (the former sporting director of Ferrari) while the President is as you can guess Max Mosley.

The FIA World Motor Sport Council

"All forms of international motor sport involving land vehicles with four or more wheels come under the jurisdiction of the FIA."

The World Motor Sport Council has responsibility for all aspects of motor sport. Like the World Council for Mobility and the Automobile, the elected members of the World Motor Sport Council come from all over the world. The Council's top priorities are:

-To promote continuously improving safety standards in all forms of motor sport

-To administer international motor sport

-To encourage and implement the adoption of common regulations for all forms of motor sports and series across the world

-To encourage and develop all forms of motorsport, especially amongst the young and in developing countries

The spread of activities encouraged and controlled by the FIA World Motor Sport Council is enormous and is not limited to the FIA Formula One World Championship, the FIA World Rally Championship, the FIA GT Championship or Formula 3000. Through its national member clubs the FIA's involvement extends to the millions of amateurs and professionals who enjoy motor sport in all of its variety.

[Scuderia_Russ]

Come on, these guys are professionals. And anyway, are there any rules about Jean Todt being on the council?