Delta wing car concept

[Scania]

When I saw the deltawing the first time I was absolutely amazed! Obviously the Idea of three wheels is not new, but to go with this design to get more efficiency was new to me.

I tried to understand the concept by using rFactor. Deltawing claim to prove the feasibility with rFactor and lots of F1 teams take rFactorPro for there simulations.

I took a Porsche and started to change wheel positions, centre of gravity, inertia etc. Then suspension, brake balance, aero, tires. At last I had to change almost everything...

Now I hope that Ben Bowlby will be a name in racing history books! To me his idea is brilliant!

what the feel it is?

[P.S.]

I´m no good driver, so I gave the mod to a friend to judge. With some more work, we got it clear that also with a trike you can generate over ore understeer as you want... It is of course very different to a usual car, so you can not work with spring rate and stabilisators like you did learn in the past. I noticed the complexity of it when I was asking for help... I went to a experianced modell racecar buddy who even finished his studies in car engineering. And he was in many cases unable to cope... And far away from predict clearly the behavior with a change in setup. He said "it is like almost starting from zero"

We are still far away from really knowing whats going on, but all in all we got this thing nice to drive.

[Giblet]

2, Is it advantageous enough (if at all) to overcome the inherent cornering disadvantages of the three wheeled layout (given equal rules, as opposed to the weight advantage that we'll see at Le Mans this year)?*

The Deltawing has 4 wheels, its not a trike.

[Scania]

I´m no good driver, so I gave the mod to a friend to judge. With some more work, we got it clear that also with a trike you can generate over ore understeer as you want... It is of course very different to a usual car, so you can not work with spring rate and stabilisators like you did learn in the past. I noticed the complexity of it when I was asking for help... I went to a experianced modell racecar buddy who even finished his studies in car engineering. And he was in many cases unable to cope... And far away from predict clearly the behavior with a change in setup. He said "it is like almost starting from zero"

We are still far away from really knowing whats going on, but all in all we got this thing nice to drive.

Y you make a 3 wheel?
2 small close wheel can support bit more side G Force

[P.S.]

In fact it has four wheels because rFactor does not support a real 3 wheel design. But I put the front tires so close together, that it is almost a trike.

A quote from Ben Bowlby: They switched to four wheels fearing to get even less acceptability with three...

[Giblet]

@PS I thought the point was to model the Delta Wing, which is a 4 wheeled car with space between the front wheels. Its not a trike.

If you are modelling a trike, cool, but then it is nothing to do with the Delta Wing, which has no wheel on its center line, they are on either side which I would hazard a guess as a paradigm shifting change.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXJ5RnqwMGE[/youtube]

[machin]

yes, true; a Freudian slip on my behalf.... but in essence two wheels close together don't have the track width of a rectangular car... yes, better than a trike, but not as good as a rectangular car of identical maximum width.....

[machin]

from an old racecar engineering article about a similar concept:

"perhaps the most obvious problem with the layout is that [most of] the roll is only resisted by a single wheel pair. The vehicle is unlikely to flip, but its not making very good use of its tyres.

short of the point of overtuning a layout with poorer overturning resistance will experience greater load transfer [for a given level of lateral acceleration]. it will load its tyres less equally, consequently using them less effectively."

[Giblet]

No matter how efficiently you build a 3 legged square table, it will never comfortable sit 4 people and stay balanced

One thing strikes me as interesting with this car. The driver would have a lot more room to point the front to the apex. Obviously, the rear wheels would clip over the curb, but you could just turn in later to counter that, and exit quicker.

Set up right the front of this car should be very pointy with a planted rear end.

I think this is a fine car for a new series, but as an Indy car replacement I am very happy it didn't stick when they hurled it at the wall.

[machin]

so what you're saying is that the line the car can take is dictated by the width of the rear wheels? so its no different to a rectangular car of equal overall width.... no advantage then.... surely?

add that to the poorer use of its tyres (see RE quote above) and it looks to be at a disadvantage compared to a rectangular car in the corners, wouldn't you say?

[Scania]

In fact it has four wheels because rFactor does not support a real 3 wheel design. But I put the front tires so close together, that it is almost a trike.

A quote from Ben Bowlby: They switched to four wheels fearing to get even less acceptability with three...

its wheel base is 60cm....

[Scania]

so what you're saying is that the line the car can take is dictated by the width of the rear wheels? so its no different to a rectangular car of equal overall width.... no advantage then.... surely?

add that to the poorer use of its tyres (see RE quote above) and it looks to be at a disadvantage compared to a rectangular car in the corners, wouldn't you say?

advantage is half power, half weight half drag, less lift half cost but same speed

but we should know that the tyre deform are relevance by the car weight actually
it is lighter then car we ever know.

[Giblet]

so what you're saying is that the line the car can take is dictated by the width of the rear wheels? so its no different to a rectangular car of equal overall width.... no advantage then.... surely?

add that to the poorer use of its tyres (see RE quote above) and it looks to be at a disadvantage compared to a rectangular car in the corners, wouldn't you say?

Notice I didn't actually say 'advantage' and used the word 'interesting' instead

Since the front of the car is narrower than the rear it has a greater range of motion.

If I am looking at it right, you can't turn in too much at the apex like a square car, or you drive over the inside of the curb. This car looks to me like it could allow a later braking and later apex, allowing a greater turn in and possibly a longer on throttle exit period due to the greater turning range.

This would all come down to how quickly it can point that nose where the driver wants though. I'm basing this entire though process on the idea this car can turn its front faster than a square car. Just hashing it out loud.

I really want to drive a properly simulated on just to see how it feels in relation to normality.

[machin]

Scania; that's half my problem with the car; they've allowed it to run at half weight; essentially that's going to allow it to overcome the disadvantages of the Delta layout.... I think it'll be relatively quick INSPITE of the Delta layout -not BECAUSE of it.

Giblet: I too would like to try it in RFactor: to verify my own simulations and back-up the last 100 years of "natural selection"!!!

[Scania]

Scania; that's half my problem with the car; they've allowed it to run at half weight; essentially that's going to allow it to overcome the disadvantages of the Delta layout.... I think it'll be relatively quick INSPITE of the Delta layout -not BECAUSE of it.

Giblet: I too would like to try it in RFactor: to verify my own simulations and back-up the last 100 years of "natural selection"!!!

for the special advance
-it can be very late brake as its friction distribution close to nature stable
-it can hard brake & turn but the front wheel won't lock up since it brake by rear, so it can transfer more load to front wheel to help turn near to the limited of tyre
-it can accelerate very early, stable & fast since a look like Drag car layout
-We can see the real car that no problem on long curve
-event u cut the curb(by rear wheel). the front wheel still on track & better handling, and there are lots of cars you can't see the front wheel locating acturally but drivers still get the racing line fine

and when we compare it to 口 car
-you can't really lighter then Deltawing when there's are no rule & you 2 using same material & strengh are then same too, because DW a really losing a big part on front of the car. if there should be a rule on it, we can see WTCC, the base limite weight of RWD car should be heavier then FWD car, because RWD is heavier naturally , also, DW is lighter naturally.
-when you make a rFactor sim car, you can make a 口 car have same drag & same down force & you feel that it is close to DW, it is impossible to make it in real world. the frontel area & Dart style shape of DW make its drag is lower, & 口 car get more upper side area, it generate more lift force, it also making drag & neutralize some down force, that means you will need extrat down force & gain more drag.