An F1 team favoring one of its drivers?

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gridwalker
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Re: An F1 team favoring one of its drivers?

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Raptor22 wrote:
gridwalker wrote:
Raptor22 wrote:Prost was favoured at Renault
Really? I know he was the number one during his Williams days (which he undoubtedly deserved against the rookie Hill) but Prost's autobiography is quite explicit about how Renault gave Rene Arnoux preferential treatment during his first stint working with the French marque.
Its been a while since I read Hilton's autobiography on Prost so I may have it the wrong way round there. But I recall Arnoux being annoyed that Prost was the favoured son because he came from a more privileged background while Arnoux had to work his way around karting and F3 and into F1. The mechanics favoured Arnoux more because of this while management favoured Prost more because he was better spoken and good ambassador for the brand.
Prost felt agrieved by this because he felt the mechanics were playing with his car while Arnoux's got special attention.
If different parts of the Renault squad were pulling in different directions during the early 80's then it becomes quite clear why the team never really amounted to much despite having a commanding technological lead in the nascent turbo era ... well, that and the hand grenade that they called an engine ;)
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xpensive
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Re: An F1 team favoring one of its drivers?

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There is no secret that both Frank Williams and Patrick Head favored Alan Jones to Carlos Reutemann in 1980-81,
some people still claim that they deliberately let him down in Las Vegas 1981 to see him lose the title to Nelson.
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

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SeijaKessen
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Re: An F1 team favoring one of its drivers?

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xpensive wrote:I was thinking it could be interesting to collect suspicions, evidence and what not on this subject and see where it leads?

Nigel Mansell was always convinced that Lotus favored Elio de Angelis and Ferrari Alain Prost, true or not?
The bit about Lotus favoring Elio de Angelis over Nigel is interesting when considering that Elio left Lotus after 1985 because of Lotus favoring Senna. I wish de Angelis would have stayed with Lotus for 1986.

xpensive
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Re: An F1 team favoring one of its drivers?

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I recall Mansell, the eternal whiner, played the heritage-card on Elio, that he was born with a silver-spoon while he had to work his way up. At one time Mansell claimed Peter Warr wouldn't even bother to give him more gasoline to complete qualifying.
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

Raptor22
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Re: An F1 team favoring one of its drivers?

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Diff-user wrote:to say Nico is being favoured in Merc is plain bullshit..... Merc as a constructor wants more podiums and points and it obviously wants to be higher up in the constrtuctor's championship simply becuase thats the --- they are supposed to be good at - building good reliable cars. So it would be dumb of them to sabotage Schumacher's race as that puts Merc as a constructor in bad light. And if Nico and Micheal had been 1 & 2 or there abouts in the championship with just a few more races to go then there would have been atleast SOME sense in the favouritism theory. But where they are right now in the driver's standing, and just seven races in, no sense at all

Lets see how the season progresses. I doubt its going to change. The general view is that when people are afraid to tackle problems they blame the unseen Gods and their fickle nature. I blame men.

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Gridlock
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Re: An F1 team favoring one of its drivers?

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Race drivers are a paranoid bunch, eh? :wtf:

Reminds me of Scott Speed's radio transmission - "if I look at the data afterwards and Tonio's car was 5deg hotter again, heads are gonna roll" or something like that
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Red Schneider
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Re: An F1 team favoring one of its drivers?

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We should create an "F1 Conspiracy Theories 2012" thread where everyone can jump up and down and yell at the top of their lungs about how Mercedes secretly hate Schumacher and want him to die, or something. Should help them get it out of their system in one place.

Jersey Tom
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Re: An F1 team favoring one of its drivers?

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Favoring a driver? How would you even do such a thing. Whole concept sounds like BS to me. Not like they're going to intentionally build one car poorly. A constructor wants to score the most points they can. If one car's setup sucks consistently week after week... tell the engineer to get their act together, but that's about it.
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munudeges
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Re: An F1 team favoring one of its drivers?

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xpensive wrote:I recall Mansell, the eternal whiner, played the heritage-card on Elio, that he was born with a silver-spoon while he had to work his way up. At one time Mansell claimed Peter Warr wouldn't even bother to give him more gasoline to complete qualifying.
Peter Warr to his last breath absolutely couldn't stand Mansell, disparaged him at every turn and outright refused to acknowledge the talent that Mansell certainly had despite all his faults.

Richard
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Re: An F1 team favoring one of its drivers?

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Red Schneider wrote:We should create an "F1 Conspiracy Theories 2012" thread where everyone can jump up and down and yell at the top of their lungs about how Mercedes secretly hate Schumacher and want him to die, or something. Should help them get it out of their system in one place.
.... in gestation ....

In the meantime the original purpose of this thread is fascinating and we can all learn from history. I do hope it carries on although it is safer for our sanity to avoid discussing the recent events in the team from Brackley.

Raptor22
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Re: An F1 team favoring one of its drivers?

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Jersey Tom wrote:Favoring a driver? How would you even do such a thing. Whole concept sounds like BS to me. Not like they're going to intentionally build one car poorly. A constructor wants to score the most points they can. If one car's setup sucks consistently week after week... tell the engineer to get their act together, but that's about it.
Enzo Ferrari didn't particularly care for his drivers, except I think it was Guiseppe Farina? the rest were jsut plug and play as far as he was concerned. His interest was the Ferrari name and what it stood and his opinion was that drivers didn't build a reputation for a brand, engineers did. He only favoured the driver who was bringing him wins.

Colin Chapman has a special relationship with Jim Clark, to the detriment of Graham Hill Snr in some cases. Hill would go o Chapman and tell him that he was having a problem. Vhapman would nod and head off to ask Clark about the same. If Clark look confused, Chapman dropped the matter there and then.

JOhn Barnard was not particularly fond of John Watsonin the period of the MP4/1 and MP4/2 (1982 and 1983 seasons). Watson always maintained he got the test car while Lauda got the tried and tested stuff.

F1 History is laced with favouritism. Theres even anecdotes of Prost's mechanics deliberately practising a go slow on his 643 because he was constantly critising the damping and changing handling characteristics from high fuel load to low fuel load. Ferrari fired him because he described the car as similar to driving a bus. Yet when Rory Byrne turned up one of the first thing she didwas haul in the damper suppliers over the lack ofconsisitently in whatthey were providing!!

We forget that F1 is still about people and no matter how professional it looks from the outside, its pretty petty and highly political on the inside.
Even a guy like Ron Dennis never seriously considered Schumacher for a McLaren drive because at some point in Schumachers early career he rubbed Ron up the wrong way. I can't remember if it was something he said about the MP4/10 or if it was something he said in 1993 when McLAren wa fighting with Ford to get the same spec engine. Even Mercedes tried prety hard to convince Ron to get Schumacher into a McLaren in 1996 but Ron was not particularly keen. Schumacher wanted out, mostly to get away from the association with the Benetton team management as he felt they had dragged his reputation into the dirt with their shoddy handling of various challenges during the 1994 season. Mercedes wanted him in a McLaren, Ron didn't. Bernie wanted him in a Ferrari but Schumacher was not particularly keen because their reputation for technical excellence was at an all time low. He was not too keen on Barnard working all the way over in England so he realised that there would be a lot of travel involved and he was not particularly keen. It was only after a meting with Todt where the plan was laid out that he agreed to sign initially only for 2 years. At that time Barnard was still in the picture but Schumacher wanted someone he couldtrust at the factory and Byrne was the man he fingered. Even at this stage Schumacher knew how the politics worked.
The rest is history. So did Byrne, BRawn and Todt favour him at Ferrari? Probably. He stipulated conditions for the initial 2 years.
Did he and Irvine get along? Initially because Schumacher actually liked IRvine and his strong personality (stemming from both having had run ins with Senna and neither backing down). Eventually their relationship declined. Irvine was not keen on testing so Schumacher shouldered the brunt of the work.It had the side benefit that he knew every single mechanic whereas Irvine did not. That Irvine's attitude to driving a Ferrari did not exactly light up the italian contigent at Ferrari is also no secret. The Italians prefer you to be respectful of the heritage of Maranello and what Scuderia Ferrari SpA stands for. Irvine just used it to further his playboy status. Thats not the way to handle a brand that has the pope bless every new race car they produce...
SO Schumacher, with his family values, he dedication to hard work, his living the Ferrari ethos is what endeared him to Ferrari. Even though Rubens was also loved at Ferrari. HIs frst win for them was exceptionally popular. I thinkit was Germany 2000. But Michael was always seen as the older brother at Ferrari so the team gravitated toward him. Rubens being naturally shy did not help his cause.

Move forward to a more modern era and Alonso at Renault. He was a Briattore man in a Briattore team and was willing to do what Briattore asked. He was rewarded with the lion share of testing and new parts. He was the guy who was going to raise Briattore's sports management stock. He was favoured. When he moved to McLaren he thought it would naturally continue but Ron had promised a certain youngster, whom he had been sponsoring since the age of 10, that he could get a fighting chance in a McLaren. ROn is not the sort of fellow to go back on his word unless he's made a mistake and he makes very very few (Hence he takin it very personal when Prost accussed him and McLaren of providing Senna with better equipment when in fact it was Honda). With Alonso arriving with expectations, and Ron havng promised equality, there was no way Alosno was going to get what he wanted and that how the fight started. Even Santander wanted to apply pressure. Ron stood firm. I have a huge amount f respect for Ron Dennis. IMO< the best F1 manager of all. I'd rate Todt 0.1 point behind him only because Tody was not at the game as long as Ron.
Ron's only bow toward favouritism was Hakkinen, for well documented reasons.


Point of all of this is, that favouritism happens, even today, for various reasons. To me the most valid reasons are the personal ones, where genuine relationships built around respect exist.
Where sabotage or other tactics are employed due to discrimination or for someone else financial gain, I think detracts from F1 and the stories that surround it.

myurr
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Re: An F1 team favoring one of its drivers?

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Raptor22 wrote:Point of all of this is, that favouritism happens, even today, for various reasons. To me the most valid reasons are the personal ones, where genuine relationships built around respect exist.
Where sabotage or other tactics are employed due to discrimination or for someone else financial gain, I think detracts from F1 and the stories that surround it.
There is a huge difference between favouritism and sabotage, and not one of your examples is actually an example of the latter. I can only think of one example of one car being sabotaged in favour of the other in an underhand way and that was when Piquet crashed his car to gift a race win to Alonso in Singapore.

Schumacher this year has had a lot of unreliability but has also made a few on track mistakes, such as crashing in to Senna. His form has been the best it has been since his comeback, but he's still not setting the world on fire or demolishing his team mate. The unreliability have categorically NOT been deliberate acts of sabotage by the team. They're not giving him lesser components just to hinder him, or deliberately failing to bolt the car together correctly. Sure his race engineers have possibly made the odd mistake, we don't know, but it is a mistake not a deliberate act. Equally Schumacher could be pushing the car in ways Rosberg isn't, liking attacking the curbs more aggressively, that is leading to mechanical issues. And there will almost certainly be an element of luck.

But there is no big conspiracy against him. Why on earth would the team do that? They have no reason and only lose out themselves. The team will benefit from massively if Schumacher performs well, both in terms of cold hard cash from gaining in the constructors championship and from the brand exposure it would give them. Before anyone should even countenance there being some kind of conspiracy you need to answer one simple question. With Mercedes spending tens of millions of euros on Schumacher's return and sponsors building advertising campaigns around him, what motivation would Mercedes have for deliberately hindering his performances? What would they gain compared to all that they lose from such action?
Last edited by myurr on 14 Jun 2012, 15:36, edited 1 time in total.

Richard
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Re: An F1 team favoring one of its drivers?

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A reminder
richard_leeds wrote:In the meantime the original purpose of this thread is fascinating and we can all learn from history. I do hope it carries on although it is safer for our sanity to avoid discussing the recent events in the team from Brackley.

Please don't clog up another thread with the Merc team talk.