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Yea but the problem is everyone just disregards the best doctors on the planet who treated and what i assume have done several follow-ups on his injury.
And again, he did not loose half his brain, he merely cracked his skull open. What sort of symptoms do you think doctors would miss but everyone else notice?
Then outside the doctor area you have his personal trainer where they use that board with lights.
If any functions in the brain has been damaged it´s going to be visible through various tests.
And it´s not that we (or me in this case) is rude to him, the fact is he´s been living on borrowed time since 2010 and there has been no sign of consistent improvement.
"If the only thing keeping a person decent is the expectation of divine reward, then brother that person is a piece of sh*t"
SectorOne wrote:Yea but the problem is everyone just disregards the best doctors on the planet who treated and what i assume have done several follow-ups on his injury.
Citation needed – which doctors are you asserting are saying he has the exact same brain function as before?
And again, he did not loose half his brain, he merely cracked his skull open. What sort of symptoms do you think doctors would miss but everyone else notice?
You don't need to be missing half your brain to suffer issues after head trauma. It's very common to have minor issues with all kinds of tasks after even relatively minor injuries.
Then outside the doctor area you have his personal trainer where they use that board with lights.
If any functions in the brain has been damaged it´s going to be visible through various tests.
SectorOne wrote:Yea but the problem is everyone just disregards the best doctors on the planet who treated and what i assume have done several follow-ups on his injury.
Citation needed – which doctors are you asserting are saying he has the exact same brain function as before?
Do you honestly think doctors would clear a person with disabilities and risk other people´s lives?
This might have worked in the 60´s but it´s 2013 now.
beelsebob wrote:You don't need to be missing half your brain to suffer issues after head trauma. It's very common to have minor issues with all kinds of tasks after even relatively minor injuries.
They won´t put you in an F1 car if you have issues. If you have a headache they will tell you to not come in.
If you got an allergy you cancel the day. Like Villeneuve or Hamilton in China.
To think that Massa can jump in with brain problems is....yea...
beelsebob wrote:Have you got a citation saying that it isn't?
Common sense. Again it´s 2013, you cannot get into an F1 car and risk people´s lives if doctors haven´t cleared you.
"If the only thing keeping a person decent is the expectation of divine reward, then brother that person is a piece of sh*t"
SectorOne wrote:And it´s not that we (or me in this case) is rude to him, the fact is he´s been living on borrowed time since 2010 and there has been no sign of consistent improvement.
Well, it is apparent that team was comfortable with him all this time.
Last year his results were enough to give the team 2nd place in WCC, in 2011 the team got 3rd, but Alonso was only 4th in standings, not far off second McLaren, so the place was a good reflection of their form, and the only year when the team likely underachieved because of Massa was 2010, ironically his best year so far.
As for his problems, the main deficiency he had is probably that he is not as bull headed as Alonso or Vettel. In 2008 he bloomed having a team supporting him, and now he doesn't have that. It's interesting to look at the results of Alonso/Massa in the early 2010 -- in the first part of the season he was around Alonso all the time, then he had a few misses, then Germany, then it all went off...
SectorOne wrote:Yea but the problem is everyone just disregards the best doctors on the planet who treated and what i assume have done several follow-ups on his injury.
And again, he did not loose half his brain, he merely cracked his skull open. What sort of symptoms do you think doctors would miss but everyone else notice?
Then outside the doctor area you have his personal trainer where they use that board with lights.
If any functions in the brain has been damaged it´s going to be visible through various tests.
I am not personally disregarding the doctors. I am sure they did a sterling job.
Again, Massa getting cleared is not a fair reflection that he fully recovered. Like I said nature cannot be beat at times, Robert Kubica may get cleared to drive, but it is doubtful he will ever fully get back to the driver he was.
The brain is a very sensitive part of the body. I studied Bio Psychology briefly at University, and it is possible that the crash weakened his reaction times and reflexes ever so slightly to where he can perform well, but not as well as he did from 2007-2009.
I personally believe he never got his confidence back fully, maybe on a subconscious level due to the crash.
The funny thing is, his first race after his crash he stuck it in 2nd position (outqualifying Alonso) and followed Alonso home for a 1-2 in the race, which was not too disimilar to how he was performing before.
Gerhard Berger wrote:The funny thing is, his first race after his crash he stuck it in 2nd position (outqualifying Alonso) and followed Alonso home for a 1-2 in the race, which was not too disimilar to how he was performing before.
Yes, and in the first part of that season he was very close to Alonso.
Gerhard Berger wrote:The funny thing is, his first race after his crash he stuck it in 2nd position (outqualifying Alonso) and followed Alonso home for a 1-2 in the race, which was not too disimilar to how he was performing before.
Personally, I think it's a confidence things. It must be hugely undermining to be in the same team as someone like Alonso or Schumacher who has the backing of the team combined with the self-belief/arrogance to crumple any upstart.
Somehow the number 2 has to maintain creditability as a driver rather than a mere domestique as they say in cycling. If they don't they'll lose their self belief. Massa has largely managed to find the balance, but it can't be easy to know your team want you to lose (to your team mate) in every race. Massa, Coulthard & Webber seemed to manage that balance and retain credibility, but we've seen plenty of others wilt and disappear in those circumstances.
I'd say Button also fits that category for his time with Hamilton when many expected him to fall under Hamilton's shadow.
Massa is the perfect number 2, capable of leading when the number 1 isn't firing on all cylinders (ie 2008 & 09 pre accident), but also a good team player in supporting the number 1 when required. He could be number 1 at a lesser team, but has been his choice is to commit to Ferrari.
So to answer the OP, I don't think he was "robbed" of his prime. He chose to be immersed in one of the strongest team cultures in F1, he seems to be bright and happy there. So he probably thinks the benefits of being part of something much bigger outweighs the notional status of being number 1 somewhere else.
ps Why "robbed", why the inference that he is a victim? He is capable of making his own choices.
richard_leeds wrote:
So to answer the OP, I don't think he was "robbed" of his prime. He chose to be immersed in one of the strongest team cultures in F1, he seems to be bright and happy there. So he probably thinks the benefits of being part of something much bigger outweighs the notional status of being number 1 somewhere else.
ps Why "robbed", why the inference that he is a victim? He is capable of making his own choices.
The term "robbed" comes from the crash? Did the crash steal away his abilities that he could have used to become a WDC or at least achieve better results.
It was not like it was his choice/fault he crashed that day, so in many ways he could be seen as a victim.
Massa just isn't a leader. He did thrive one season, but since Alonso arrived, has fallen back. I'm not surprised. I think Alonso has taken over the team. He most certainly playes head games with Massa. Is Alonso the better driver, yes, but is he that much quicker, it's hard to say.
There are some points of view that I think many people miss when it comes to Massa: First of all, it is far from true that Massa was doing well only in 2008. He usually matched Kimi Raikkonen very well in 2007 also. They beat each other recularly for most of the season. Technical problems in qualifying forced him to start from the back of the field in the first race in 2007 and Kimi took an easy victory in the best car, while Massa came back from 22nd to 6th. It's difficult to say that Massa wasn't as good as Kimi there. In Malaysia, Massa took pole, but had a bad start and later made a mistake when trying to overtake Hamilton, resulting in Kimi and Heidfeld getting past. So there, Massa wasn't as good as Kimi. But then he won the next two races and also beat Kimi in Monaco after that. I also remember the qualifying for Hungary in 2007 for another reason than Alonso's stunt towards the end: Ferrari simply forgot to put fuel on Massa's car before his final attempt in Q2, so when the car was finally ready, the tyres had cooled down and Massa was unable to improve.
Before the race at Monza in 2007, Massa had 69 points, while Kimi had 68 points. Massa was ahead of Kimi in the race at Monza when his suspension failed. So after Monza, with only 4 races to go, Massa remained at 69 points, while Kimi had 74 points and Hamilton and Alonso was at 92 points and 89 points respectively. At Spa, Massa qualified with fuel for one more lap than Kimi, and was beaten to pole by just 0.017 s, a margine which is clearly smaller than the disadvantage of carrying fuel for one lap at Spa. Raikkonen then won at Spa with Massa finishing 2nd, and then it was clear that Ferrari only had one driver with a realistic (but still slim) chance of winning the championship. This may have hurt Massas motivation and performance in Japan and China, but home in Brazil, Massa once again was best, both in driving the car and doing what was best for the team, giving Raikkonen the victory and Ferrari the title. So in 2007, everything indicates that Massa was at the same level as Kimi Raikkonen, i.e. a world class driver.
In 2008 Massa was clearly better than Raikkonen, and I feel very strongly that he also was better than Hamilton and deserved the title more than him. The reason why I say this is that Hamilton never suffered any team mistakes or technical failures that season. But he single-handedly caused a lot of trouble for himself, including the most embarrasing episode of formula 1 that I can remember, when he crashed into Kimi Raikkonen in the pitlane in Canada. Massa, on the other hand, made fewer mistakes, but was the victim of a sloppy Ferrari team and a less reliable car. Massa had a commanding lead with 3 laps to go in Hungary when his engine failed, robbing him of 10 points and giving Hamilton 1 point. In Singapore Massa was leading again, when Ferrari f*cked up his pitstop, again, robbing him of 10 points and giving Hamilton 1 point. That's a total of 22 points towards Hamilton, who then beat Massa by a single point. Everything that happened to Hamilton in 2008 was his own fault and could have been avoided by himself, for example the penalties he received for leaving the track at Magny-Cours and Spa.
Ironically, the titles were awarded to those who made the most and biggest mistakes in 2008. Ferrari who, contrary to McLaren, made a lot of silly mistakes in 2008, won the constructor's championship, while Hamilton, who did more numerous and severe mistakes than Massa, won the driver's championship. And this is the only title of a driver regarded by many as the best in the field.
In 2009, Massa was also very competitive when comparing to Kimi until his injury.
I don't know whether or not Massas accident still has an impact on his driving. What I do know is that Massa's strength when he was performing at his best was qualifying and this is no longer such an important quality. Tyre management, however, is now much more important and I don't think that this is Massas strongest point. He seemed to struggle at the end of his stints more than Kimi when they drove for Ferrari. When Massa won races, he did so through good qualifying and/or great starts. So even if Massa had been as good today as in 2008, he might not have performed as well now. Mercedes has demonstrated how little strong qualifying is worth if you can't keep the tyres working. Now, Massa is usually beaten by Alonso in qualifying as well, but that may be a result of qualifying no longer having the same focus. This is speculation from my side, but it is more important to make the tyres work in the race and this may change the car's behaviour in qualifying in such a way that it hurts Massa. I don't think it is necessary to study the results from the last 2 years very carefully to see that Massa is far behind Alonso. But I want to take a closer look at the results from 2010:
Until the Turkish Grand Prix, Massa was doing well in 2010. He had 67 points in 7 races, while Alonso had 79 points. That is decent, considering what has been said about Alonso. Then Massa had 3 races without scoring points (Alonso also had some poor results in those races) before they came to Germany. There, Massa was best and would have won if it wasn't for the team order. After Alonso crashed out at Spa, he had 134 points plus the 7 points he earned from team orders. Massa had 116 points minus the 7 points he lost from team orders. That is not a very big difference. But after this, Alonso scored another 111 points in 6 races, while Massa only scored 35 points. That is a big difference. Maybe Massa lost motivation when he was out of the title fight or maybe the team order broke his spirit.
So one could argue that Massa's performance drop came more or less 1 year after his accident, as a mental reaction on falling out of contention for the title and being ordered to let Alonso pass him. In 2011 the change to Pirelli tyres may then have hurt him further. Of course,this does not mean that the accident hasn't also had some effect on his performance. Maybe Massa would have beat Alonso in 2010 if he hadn't had the accident. After all, his performance when comparing to Kimi was quite impressive, and who can say for sure that Alonso is any better than Kimi?
I always thought it was the accident that cut his edge ,but this thread has made me rethink and it now is rather obvious he is simply a victim of his confidence waning after Ferrari and Smedley (Alonso is faster than you,have you understood?) have questioned his speed and ability to win the title.
If one has ever witnessed how smedley was instrumental in inspiring Massas confidence especially in difficult situations understand show much Felipe depends on the team standing firmly behind him .It must be a huge blow realising Ferrari is
Project Fernando these days.
and maybe you also forgot to mention how Badoer and Fisichella completely failed to make any impression with that Ferrari
as standins for Felipe.A talentless also ran would not drag such a shitty car to results it did simply not deserve.
Massa occupies that territory that we saw with guys like Heinz-Harald Frentzen.
Incredibly gifted drivers when the circumstances were right, yet not quite as able to perform when the circumstances do not suit them. The difference between the good drivers and the greats is what they do when the circumstances do not suit them.
Maybe had Ferrari been more nurturing to Massa we might have seen more sustained great performances out of him. Remember, Frentzen only thrived in easier atmospheres like Sauber and then Jordan. Williams was not a good environment for him.
"I don't want to make friends with anybody. I don't give a sh*t for fame. I just want to win." -Nelson Piquet
beelsebob wrote:You don't need to be missing half your brain to suffer issues after head trauma. It's very common to have minor issues with all kinds of tasks after even relatively minor injuries.
They won´t put you in an F1 car if you have issues. If you have a headache they will tell you to not come in.
If you got an allergy you cancel the day. Like Villeneuve or Hamilton in China.
You're right, They told Perez not to drive after his crash in Monaco. Oh wait, no, they let him get in the car in a state where cornering fast made him dizzy and near unconscious. He then volunteered to stop.
As much as you would like it to be, "you're brain injured" is not a boolean condition that you can measure, and not something you can make a black and white decision on. If the injury results in blacking out in high speed corners, you're right, they're not gonna let you race. If it results in being a little bit slow, no, you're not right at all. That slowness is likely impossible to measure in any reasonable way, and hence impossible to use as a reason to keep him out of the car, other than "you're not getting the results, you're out of the team".
beelsebob wrote:Have you got a citation saying that it isn't?
Common sense. Again it´s 2013, you cannot get into an F1 car and risk people´s lives if doctors haven´t cleared you.
Doctors clearing you, and doctors saying that there's absolutely no difference in your cognitive performance are entirely different things.
