Greatness.... or not

[Manoah2u]

Personally, I'm more interested in the inclusion of Flavio on that list.

Flavio, Champman, Newey...one of these things is not like the other.

Indeed.

Flavio Briatore (born 12 April 1950) is an Italian businessman. He started his career as a restaurant manager and insurance salesman in Italy. Briatore was convicted in Italy on several fraud charges in the 1980s, though the convictions were successively extinguished by an amnesty. Briatore set up a number of successful Benetton franchises as a fugitive in the Virgin Islands and the United States.

Right up there with Byrne, Chapman et al.

[Sevach]

This hype over Brawn as TP is amazing, two seasons with Honda going backwards, then a flash on a loophole in the new rules, followed by three seasons at Mercedes going nowhere and then finally a couple of wins after hiring every TD on the market?

Just for the record, Brawn started at Honda in December of 2007, so no impact on either of Honda dissapointing cars.

Both 07 and 08 were designed under Nakamoto (works at HRC in MotoGP now if i'm not mistaken), 08 was ran under Ross Brawn's umbrella, who quickly decided to focus on the 2009 season...

[Manoah2u]

This hype over Brawn as TP is amazing, two seasons with Honda going backwards, then a flash on a loophole in the new rules, followed by three seasons at Mercedes going nowhere and then finally a couple of wins after hiring every TD on the market?

Just for the record, Brawn started at Honda in December of 2007, so no impact on either of Honda dissapointing cars.

Both 07 and 08 were designed under Nakamoto (works at HRC in MotoGP now if i'm not mistaken), 08 was ran under Ross Brawn's umbrella, who quickly decided to focus on the 2009 season...

exactly

[FoxHound]

I'm sorry, maybe my sarcasm was too subtle for you.
Next time I shall be as subtle as a hammer to avoid any confusion.

[xpensive]

This forum is gathering a new crowd with a bold interpretation of the past, don't you agree Fox?

I'm sure both Clark and Barnard would have been on that list, only had their xistance been known.

Andrea Sassetti was another interesting character, a little in Briatore's league if you ask me, but was he great?

[iotar__]

This forum is gathering a new crowd with a bold interpretation of the past, don't you agree Fox?

I'm sure both Clark and Barnard would have been on that list, only had their xistance been known.

Andrea Sassetti was another interesting character, a little in Briatore's league if you ask me, but was he great?

I don't know about "Fox" but for me it doesn't get any bolder than to throw blanket and dismissive statements like this one as the only argument, be it from new, old or in-between "crowd":

This hype over Brawn as TP is amazing, two seasons with Honda going backwards, then a flash on a loophole in the new rules, followed by three seasons at Mercedes going nowhere and then finally a couple of wins after hiring every TD on the market?

What hype? So Brawn's teams were "going nowhere" until they were "somewhere" which of course can't be attributed to him because it would ruin fixed point of view, how easy. The only old, tired argument missing is Honda-Brawn was the most expensive car or some nonsense like that. Of course his replacement cannot be judged because he was never a team principal which makes him automatically excluded from critique and obviously a better option. Never run Honda "anywhere". A bit like Marko's logic that Kvyat handles better pressure of WsbR because he never drove there?

The only rub is these "couple of wins" (and couple of championships but let's leave those). How easier that would be if Mercedes 2013 wasn't good. That was always a danger when hiring replacement before start of the season, decent car and results were always going to make this situation a bit awkward but that's corporate scapegoat + "change" logic.

As for how to judge team principal, I can't come up with anything better with all differences between teams than some alternative reality where someone else manages Brawn/Honda to more than two championships and maybe (it's quite close to it) only loses to Red Bull beating Ferrari/McLaren on more than one occasion. Unless it's only because of those all available TDs Brawn hired, which would lead to unwanted in context of Brawn dismissive critique conclusion than Ferrari wins should be partly attributed to Brawn. Let's dismiss them then just like that.

[xpensive]

In all honesty, I'm painfully aware that I'm not the smartest ever born, but I have read the above four times and still get zip.

[FoxHound]

Haven't heard of this Sassetti you speak of, x.
As unscrupulous as full flava Flav?

@iotar
Brawn sold an idea to mercedes, which at the time sounded fantastic. RRA was coming in, with smaller budgets and workforces.
It didn't work for 3 years and only got better this year due to staff recruitments.
My major bug bear with brawn was why the wind tunnel was not upgraded to 60% model earlier. This is a clear management decision that rests with him.
Otherwise I think he did a decent job of making merc a player.

Brawn heads talented individuals where he goes. He manages them very well by most accounts.
But him receiving praise in the same vein as Newey chapman Byrne etc is stretching things too far.

[xpensive]

Never heard of Andrea Sassetti Fox, you are in for a treat tonite!

http://www.f1rejects.com/teams/andreamoda/profile.html

[GitanesBlondes]

My reason for mentioning those things about Brawn is because it's to show that on the technical development side of things, Brawn has operated in a very grey area of the rulebook. There's nothing he did that even remotely compares to the innovation Chapman was known for.

Regarding Chapman and Delorean, I was strictly focusing on F1 happenings, not events outside of F1.

What about Jochen Rindt and Colin? Are you referring to Monza 1970 where Jochen didn't have his straps fully secured for comfort purposes? Or that he told the mechanics to take off the wings on the Lotus 72 even though the 72 had not yet been tested without the wings? If that was an effort to put the blame on Colin, try and remember the other part of the story that doesn't fit in with the Chapman murdered drivers narrative that people seem to be so fond of tossing up.

You're the one who made the great comment. I am asking you to clarify it with substance instead of trying to run up some Daimler sponsored PR puff piece.

again, you change my words and imply things i did not imply.

I included several 'greats' in formula 1. One great does not need to equal the other to be 'great'. Vettels result don't equal Mansells results. both are greats. Flavio is a great [go ahead see his achievements in F1], while f.e. Peter Windsor or Mike Gascoyne isnt.

nothing more, nothing less.

stop rediculing and back at the topic at hand.

You can't even provide any concrete argument for why Brawn is considered a "great", other than because you want it to be true.

Sorry, you don't get to throw out some BS statement, and then whine that you're being misinterpreted when you get challenged on it. You still have provided no reason at all.

Speaking of Flavio, I'm sure xpensive remembers quite well the great partnership between Flavio and Cheating Tom, no?

But really Manoah, I don't even consider Ross to be the technical equal of say Gerard Ducarouge who only designed 1 championship winning F1 car - the 1969 Matra-Ford. There was a F1 before Ross showed up at Benetton, filled with far more resourceful technical minds. You should check it out because it's pretty cool stuff.

[zeph]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ross_Brawn

I think his record speaks for itself. I don't know how to define greatness, but he certainly has been extremely successful.

To dismiss the fact that he was there for every single one of Schu's WDC's and attribute that solely to Todt/Byrne is ludicrous.



Manoah2u's point was crystal-clear to me, and it does appear to me that people are taking his post apart just for the hell of it.
He did not compare Brawn directly to Chapman or Newey. In the same sentence he mentioned drivers as well, so it was obvious he was talking about great F1 characters in a broader sense. Not sure why others want to sidestep the larger point just to take something out of context and bitf--k the s--t out of it.

[xpensive]

...
To dismiss the fact that he was there for every single one of Schu's WDC's and attribute that solely to Todt/Byrne is ludicrous.
...

I'm certain there's a janitor or something at Maranello who can claim the same thing.

I do believe in moving up in the world, but from machine operator to Technical director of an F1 team is a bridge too far.

[zeph]

Whatever. And I bet that janitor came from Benetton as well?

[FoxHound]

What makes him great zeph?
Lets ascertain that first.

[zeph]

Like I said in my first post:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ross_Brawn

I think his record speaks for itself. I don't know how to define greatness, but he certainly has been extremely successful.