which driver will gain most from 2014 regs ?

[SectorOne]

That´s what i thought, i know what torque steering is as well.

[dren]

Could someone explain what torque oversteer is and how that is different from normal oversteer.
Seems to me people mix the word torque steer with oversteer.

it's basically pushing the throttle pedal over the grip limit, while your front wheels aren't dead straight yet. (If they were dead straight you'd get wheelspin)

The rear would still move to the left if the fronts were straight.

[raymondu999]

Why would the rear move left?

[Juzh]

That´s what i thought, i know what torque steering is as well.

IMO, torque oversteer is basically the same thing as power oversteer, but is only used to describe situations when you suddenly encounter massive power spikes in mid rev range. Turbos have much flatter power trajectory and can deliver much more power earlier than NA. Past V8s had very linear power delivery, so there was very little chance of actually oversteering when throttle was applied reasonably. With the turbos however, flatter and sudden power curve will spin the wheels much easier and earlier in the rev range.

My 2 litre NA peugeot 206rc weekend car will only start to spin wheels once it's up to 5k+ rpm, while 2 litre turbodiesel 407, despite having 40bhp less, will spin from 1800 rpm.

[tim|away]

My observation is that the term "torque oversteer" has been made up and been used loosely to describe potential oversteer as a result of next year's engines having more torque. Again, there is no such thing as torque oversteer.

[FoxHound]

I'm sure the engine guys will be aware of what the tyre contact patch can handle under power.
Obviously they cannot eliminate it totally but mapping software can help no end. But I reckon we will see a lot of power oversteer moments coming out of the slow stuff.

As for the "torque steer" I wonder if it would be a problem.
I have been driven in the mk1 Focus RS and I developed a loose bowel with the amount of front end movement
under hard acceleration.
On a couple of corner even full lock on the wheel was as useful as sending smoke signals to the tyres.
Of course the driven wheels are also the steered wheels in the Focus case.

If we do see it in f1 I reckon the tyres will turn to jelly in no time.

[Mandrake]

As for the "torque steer" I wonder if it would be a problem.
I have been driven in the mk1 Focus RS and I developed a loose bowel with the amount of front end movement
under hard acceleration.
On a couple of corner even full lock on the wheel was as useful as sending smoke signals to the tyres.
Of course the driven wheels are also the steered wheels in the Focus case.

If we do see it in f1 I reckon the tyres will turn to jelly in no time.

You will not see it in F1.....as you described it only happens in FWD cars. Why is that? because under acceleration the balance shifts to rear, "making the front lighter" and decreasing grip at the front wheels. The front wheels have to do the acceleration and steering, but they are not capable to transfer all that to the road.

RWD cars have the benefit of "getting pushed" to the ground while accelerating due to the weight shifting backwards. That's why normally RWD cars have a much better off the line performance than FWD cars.

What we will see (or might see) in F1 will be a higher potential of spinning the rear wheels due to the different power delivery. The drivers will have to overcome this by themselves, and they will. So I doubt that we will see tires turning into jelly in no time

[SectorOne]

as you described it only happens in FWD cars. Why is that? because under acceleration the balance shifts to rear, "making the front lighter" and decreasing grip at the front wheels.

Actually it´s because the front wheels are not locked. If you lock the steering rack you would not get any torque steer.

[JimClarkFan]

I think there's two ways to cut that cake. If we assume that next year there will be more torque powersliding/oversteer - then it can play out one of two ways.

A) More aggressive drivers who can better handle oversteer will prevail because the tail is sliding all the time
OR
B) The less aggressive drivers with lighter right feet will induce less torque oversteer in the first place, and hence the smoother drivers will prevail.

Remember that said torque oversteer - if real - is a failure mode, not a natural consequence of the car's handling.

In other words this thread is mental masturbation.

I agree btw.

[raymondu999]

In other words this thread is mental masturbation.

Pardon?

I agree btw.

Nyaw diddums

[Phil]

Guys, you need to realize that it's not torque that's Buttons problem, it's actually a very specific way of setting up the car where he sometimes ends up with maxed front wing and an understeery car at the same time.

I just wanted to pick up on this comment back on Page 3.

I'm not going to argue what is Buttons difficulty/weakness or not, but from my understanding regarding the 2014 season and turbos, it's power delievery. In a turbo'ed car, you have a very peaky curve. Torque at the wheels might be similar to last years V8s, but the torque curve and subsequently power delivery most definately won't be.

Because of the power-delivery which will be peaky and deliver 'more torque within a smaller band' (relative to a flat curve spread out more evenly across a wider band) you will have instances where the wheels will spin up significantly, either slipping and producing oversteer. This IMO will make the 2014 cars more snappy / twitchy, which I think is what people feel might benefit a driver like Hamilton but limit a driver like Button who in the past has given an impression of not liking this behaviour. On the other side, a driver with a more sensitive input of throttle, might be able to "smoothen" the peaky delievery a bit, but on the whole, I still think a twitchy characteristic will dominate which from my understanding is what a driver like Hamilton likes.

The difference between a turbo and a naturally aspirated car is quite evident when comparing a Lotus Exige/Elise compared to an Open/Vauxhall Speedster (both same chasis, one with the Opel turbo unit and the Lotus with a Rover or Toyota/Yamaha engine), both cars roughly same peak power but the Opel with a lot more torque. Both cars have an aprox. weight distribution of 4o/60 (front/rear), but are quite neutral to drive on the track, yet the Turbo'd one will usually have more twitchy oversteer, especially when racing on a wet track where grip levels are even lower.

A more extreme example would be Caterham Super7s - where there are various models with naturally aspirated engines or turbos. The Turbos are significantly harder to drive because of the peaky power delivery in such a light chasis. Many prefer the NA ones because they are easier (and less dangerous) to drive (though less exhilirating).

[Mandrake]

Actually it´s because the front wheels are not locked. If you lock the steering rack you would not get any torque steer.

Only on an absolute even road, right?

A locked front diff would lead to different driving dynamics though

[SectorOne]

Only on an absolute even road, right?

On all roads. If the car starts changing trajectory with a locked steering it´s not because of torque steer but uneven road/suspension setup. But lock the steering on an RWD car and you could get the same problem just at the other end of the car.

Torque steer is the consequence of the fact that you steer with the same tires that are propelling the car forward.

[munudeges]

Hence the term "late apex," darling.

What I'm describing is not late apex braking sweetheart. What is done here is early and few drivers can get it right. You've got this backwards.

Acceleration in the forward direction and lateral directions. What else? Forward acceleration is building speed on a straight - lateral acceleration is rotating the car's heading through the corner. Simple physics.

I'm afraid you're applying those terms in a manner that doesn't make much, if any, sense.

Must be why late, hard braking is such a valued trait.

I'm afraid the best drivers have always braked earlier sweetie and late hard braking is something you learn not to do at a very early age. You're not going to get less lateral acceleration later, and hence wasted time, by braking late and also killing the tyres in the process. It's a sacrifice. You give up one or the other and you err on the side of early braking and managing it from there.

This thread is really quite hilarious. You're all qualified driver coaches apparently.

[raymondu999]

Do enlighten us, qualified driver coach.