Petrol Companies in F1

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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Racer-X
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Joined: 03 Nov 2003, 14:29
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Re: Asphalt in Bahrain

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Racer-X wrote::arrow: It was reported that Ferrari had some private information from Shell regarding the Tarmak applied in the track of Bahrain.
Once they are using in Bahrain the asphalt supplied by Shell (the same used in Maranelo) it was possible to Ferrari to develop with Bridgestone the perfect tyres for the desert track.... :wink:
Follow the LINK

http://www.thescuderia.net/Technical/Ba ... date.shtml

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It was said that Ferrari is using a new fuel in Imola. Does anybody knows anything about that?

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The new rules Mr Mosley is trying to impose will pose a new challenge to the oil companies. The volume of fuel during the race will be limited, so fuel economy will be a very important parameter...

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Does anybody knows anything about the new fuel developed by Shell for Ferrari? They say it is lighter? is it possible and keeps the same power and fuel consumption? For me mass is energy and energy is power. How can they have more power with less mass?

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Does anybody knows anything about the new fuel developed by Shell for Ferrari? They say it is lighter? is it possible and keeps the same power and fuel consumption? For me mass is energy and energy is power. How can they have more power with less mass? :?:

Shell fan
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Does anybody knows anything about the new fuel developed by Shell for Ferrari? They say it is lighter? is it possible and keeps the same power and fuel consumption? For me mass is energy and energy is power. How can they have more power with less mass? :?:

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Does anybody know anything about the new fuel developed by Shell for Ferrari? They say it is lighter? is it possible and keeps the same power and fuel consumption? For me mass is energy and energy is power. How can they have more power with less mass?

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Racer-X
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Lighter fuel ... hummmm???? Can be

But the fuel consumption would increase a lot and this was not what we saw on the track. Normaly a good fuel is in the range of .75-.76 kg/l.

The big challenge is to develop high density fuels to help the fuel consumption but with a very high flame speed in order to have a complete combustion and let the engine have as much as possible revs

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Racer-X
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Shell & Ferrari

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Have a look on the link below:

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns12984.html

Shell is talking to BAR

BP is talking to Williams

Petrobras is talking to Ferrari

Aral is talking to Toyota


We can have some changes in a near future...

wowf1
wowf1
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Joined: 05 Jan 2004, 13:53
Location: Brunel University, England

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Yes i'd say its very possible to alter the mass of the volume of fuel. Just as an external example: I was reading a book concerning forced induction and fuelling, and the difference between the lightest and heaviest fuels was about 5kg per the same volume!!! Obviously in F1 all the fuels are very similar so there won't be anywhere near that mass difference, but maybe the difference is enough when you have 100 or so litres (do they carry more than that?)

Secondly, I was reading, in Racecar Engineering i think, that all fuel and oil companies begin with a basic fuel/oil baseline composition, and then simply purchase additives that are commercially available!!! I have to say this annoyed me slightly because i love solutions that come from the ground up, and integrate into a wholly superior product. But i read that even in F1 they all use the same process of adding, for example de-foaming agents, lubricity agents and other additives.
It just seems like an 'easy way out'!! I'm not pretending its easy, but surely the facts i have read would enable anyone to mix the correct compounds and end up with F1 fuel :shock:

rob

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Racer-X
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Joined: 03 Nov 2003, 14:29
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wowf1 wrote:Yes i'd say its very possible to alter the mass of the volume of fuel. Just as an external example: I was reading a book concerning forced induction and fuelling, and the difference between the lightest and heaviest fuels was about 5kg per the same volume!!! Obviously in F1 all the fuels are very similar so there won't be anywhere near that mass difference, but maybe the difference is enough when you have 100 or so litres (do they carry more than that?)

Secondly, I was reading, in Racecar Engineering i think, that all fuel and oil companies begin with a basic fuel/oil baseline composition, and then simply purchase additives that are commercially available!!! I have to say this annoyed me slightly because i love solutions that come from the ground up, and integrate into a wholly superior product. But i read that even in F1 they all use the same process of adding, for example de-foaming agents, lubricity agents and other additives.
It just seems like an 'easy way out'!! I'm not pretending its easy, but surely the facts i have read would enable anyone to mix the correct compounds and end up with F1 fuel :shock:

rob
Dear Wow,

If you see the FIA technical regulations for F1 (http://www.fia.com/resources/documents/ ... _Reg_a.pdf)
you will see that the fuel density is between 720 and 775 kg/m3 @ 15°C.

Supposing Ferrari was using a fuel with maximum density and now has reduced to the minimum it means 55kg in 1.000 liters of fuel.

As the cars are going to qualifying with an average of 50 liters of fuel the maximum weight reduction that can be achieved is 2.75kg. This weight, for an average track, means a maximum of 0.08s in the lap times (from higher to lower density).

It looks to be more "noise" and less real technology ! :?

Regarding the fuel development for F1 I prefer to believe they are realy developing special fuels. With the engines running at 19,000rpm (~320revs/sec) it means the engines have 160 combustions in 1 second interval. It is amazing! I can't believe that a pump petrol, designed to engines running at 7,000rpm maximum, can burn 3 times quicker!!!. Thus, it is written in the regulations that only components and additives used in pump fuel can be used in the F1 Petrol. See below parts of the article 19...

"19.1.2 The detailed requirements of this Article are intended to ensure the use of fuels that are composed of
compounds normally found in commercial fuels and to prohibit the use of specific power-boosting chemical
compounds. Acceptable compounds and compound classes are defined in 19.2 and 19.4.4. In addition, to
cover the presence of low level impurities, the sum of components lying outside the 19.2 and 19.4.4
definitions are limited to 1% max m/m of the total fuel.
19.1.3 Any petrol, which appears to have been formulated in order to subvert the purpose of this regulation, will be
deemed to be outside it."

KK
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I'm not an expert on petrochemicals or anything, but I think Shell Fan is getting chemistry mixed up with relativity! The essence of fuel is to liberate energy via the breaking of bonds in the chemical. Think of it like this: you have to supply energy to the individual atoms to bind them chemically (like heating chemicals together at school provides enough thermal energy for the chemicals to react). This energy can then be liberated back if you break those bonds - so that your chemical splits into different compounds. The mass of the molecule is not the important factor in this process. (It is however important in nuclear fusion/fission where that process involves the conversion of mass to energy via

E=(gamma)*m*c^2

which occurs in the nucleus of an atom - which is not really invoved in chemical bonding). If your still confused: chemical bonding = electrons circling the nucleus, mass-energy = nucleus only!

Irvingthien
Irvingthien
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Joined: 17 Nov 2003, 03:40

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Heard that Shell developed fuels for Ferrari that has high energy density and ver light....what now for Exxon,Petrobas and ELF???

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Irvingthien wrote:Heard that Shell developed fuels for Ferrari that has high energy density and ver light....what now for Exxon,Petrobas and ELF???
:?: What do you mean as "high energy density"? :?:

How a fuel can be light and have high density at the same time?

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Racer-X
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Joined: 03 Nov 2003, 14:29
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It is impressive how people play with the words. If you do not know a bit of phisics or chemistry it is better to keep the mouth closed (or fingers sleeping)

I have also heard that a light fuel reduces the fuel consumption because the car will be ligther!!!!!!!!!!