Renault in new spy scandal!

[astsmtl]

...
After all the boss of Renault isn't exactly F1 freindly, and assuming they recieve a 100M dollar fine (after all there is a precedent here...), do you think it could pave the way for them to exit the sport??

Mosley explained that the amount of fine will be proportional to the team budget, so we cannot expect the same 100M dollar fine. I think it will be between 10M and 50M

[Rob W]

I'm interested, from

a legal standpoint, is there a clear cut difference between possession and use of intellectual property anyway?..

In F1 not really. The reason is that in an activity like F1 much of the technology is inside the car. Without the marshalls checking the plans/internals of every car at every race car it is extremely hard (more like time and money consuming) to be sure that people aren't using other teams info. Even with the car to look over most people wouldn't be able to spot certain things. Worse yet, since technology changes so fast at every race they'd be back to square one.

So, to deter cheating and simplify it in a totally clear-cut way the rules draw the line at possession. This also serves to deter anyone who thinks they'll be a wise-arse and use it to make their own car just different enough, or to make parts up and use them for testing, but not actually use any of the ideas on their race car. If use of another team's info in your own car was the limit of the rule then you would be allowed to get away with this.

I honestly think Renault are going to get the big hammer - unless much of what has been said it more quality F1 journalism as usual.

Rob W

[Shaddock]

I honestly think Renault are going to get the big hammer - unless much of what has been said it more quality F1 journalism as usual.

Rob W

Maybe, But you have to remember that Bernie and Flavio are Very Very good friends. These guys go to dinner together and spend time together away from the race weekends. Also, Bernie and Max aren't going to allow their major ally when it comes to cost cutting within the sport to take a big hit that could put him out of the F1 business.

Hypocritical yes, but that life.

[Belatti]

There seems to be a big shock because "Renault has others info too... oohhh!!!!"
Lets put it upon the table: ALL TEAMS DO THAT AND ALL TEAMS WILL!
More or less, that has always happened and will always happen, just because if there are 11 teams and there aren´t 500 chief designers, but maybe 15.
When engineers market moves, is common that one engineer pass from one team to another with ideas -and some drawings- under their arm.

[allan]

Mclaren were not punished from the begining because they "Did not use the info.", but they did lie about that since the emails between the drivers show their intentions to use the Ferrari data.

They intended to use the data but didn't? Its not lying if they still didn't use the info. Can you convict someone for intending to rob a bank?

In a matter of fact yes you absolutely can!
Mclaren didn't only have the intentions to use the info, they also tested different solutions derived from those couple a hundred ferrari pages. And the worst thing above all that is that Mclaren lied about their possession of the data, especially that they've had it from the begining of the season!
anyhow, mclaren's spy thingy isn't our topic here, and if u wanna defend them, there is a good old 52 or 53 pages topic about that case where we can take our debate to
the bottom line is, Renault's reaction was completely different than that of Mclaren's, and i think they deserve the same "initial" judgemnet as the one Mclaren had 5 months ago, i.e. not being punished!
Wat's ironic though is that some of the people who defended that decision back then are now demanding a "fair" penalty for renault... i donno what do u guys wanna call it, double standards maybe?

[ben_watkins]

Looks like the Renault scandal could be bigger than Stepneygate..

http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx ... 3&PO=41333

"McLaren alleges in its submission to the FIA World Motor Sport Council that its former engineer Phil Mackereth loaded 33 files, containing more than 780 individual drawings, onto Renault’s computer system.

The memo claims this information amounted to the entire technical blueprint of McLaren’s 2006 and 2007 cars"

[johny]

Think for a while... 780 sounds familiar, ferrari's dossier had 780.

How can a hi tech sport be so childish

[meves]

I guess as this is being looked into so late that Renaults 2008 car will not be under the same scrutiny as the McLaren

[mcdenife]

Allan wrote:

where we can take our debate to Wink
the bottom line is, Renault's reaction was completely different than that of Mclaren's, and i think they deserve the same "initial" judgemnet as the one Mclaren had 5 months ago, i.e. not being punished!

So you are saying Mclaren's punishment was due to their reaction rather than the evidence? If so that would make sense because after reading the transcripts thoroughly, I am still to fathom what warranted the punishment let the magnitude of the punishment.

Wat's ironic though is that some of the people who defended that decision back then are now demanding a "fair" penalty for renault... i donno what do u guys wanna call it, double standards maybe?

Looking at it objectively, legally, faily and putting team loyalties aside, it would be double standards if, assuming currently reports are correct, renault were not punished at least as severely as Mcl were.

Quite frankly I think this latest thing is good in the long term for F1. As much as I do not want to see renault punished or given a hard time, Mclaren needs pursue this vigorously and very visibly (by any means necessary) because, sadly, this issue is not really about renault (or even mclaren for that matter), but about Mad Max in particular, the future and governance of the sport.

[ben_watkins]

Well Carlos Garcia, President of the Spanish motor sport federation and Vice-President of the FIA, has come out and confirmed what we all thought in the first place - this kinda thing happens all the time..

http://www.f1technical.net/news/7706

Carlos Garcia has played down the accusations as he declares that the exchange of documents has always been a part of the sport: "I can not say anything about this matter. The only thing is that this sort of thing has always happened in formula one. I don't know whether you can call it espionage or not. It used to be called exchanging documents and now it is spying, but historically it has always existed in the sport."

So one must wander why McLaren was punished in the way they were?

[Sawtooth-spike]

hahaha, thats a Classic.

So You go in for the kill when Mclaren do it, But when it Renult it "Just one of those things". And People wonder why every thinks the FIA Support some teams and discriminat against others.

As somebody said early this is not about Ether Team it about testing the FIA's Resolve, I Bet Renult get off on a technicality!

[Belatti]

Well, finally we discorver why does Renault spent 30% less money than the rest of the teams. That is what I (and Flavio) call efficiency
(Its a joke)

[timbo]

To me there's a number of differences between Renault case and McLaren's.
Main difference is that former McLaren's engineer posessed information which he taken from McLaren and there was no transfer of up-to-date info from McLaren in real time (which apparently happened in Ferrari case). In that case it can also be considered espionage, however the only problem is that he took that floppies with him. I mean - look at Adrian Newey, when he left McLaren to Red Bull. Even if he didn't took any technical drawings he had enormous knowledge about McLaren design and technology (btw doesn't RB3 look similar to MP4-20 to anyone?), so what, let's ban any transfer of engineers between teams? Also much of the info is about outdated MP4-21. E.g. mass-dampfer drawing... who the hell would be interested in mass-dempfer drawing now??
Secondly, we still don't know about Renault's involvement in elucidation of what happened. I think that in McLaren's case, FIA desicion was influenced by the fact that the team apparently tried to hide the information. If Renault shows that they did every effort to help FIA in the investigation they can be punished less.

[rkn]

Espionage is espionage, Renault deserve exactly the same treatment as McLaren.

If you send me your credit card pin number and passport am I an Identity thief???

It's smelling more and more like a conspiracy to me. Why haven't Stepney and Coughlan been punished?? Espionage is illegal, but being a spy is OK? IMO macca was framed... not by Ferrari but by FIA.

[bar555]

Ever wondered who is the leak

A mechanic moved from Mc Laren to Renault , a spy or Alonso (who already signed to Renault and tried to help his new team)

Any clue to this