traction control and wet weather

[nae]

there seems to be a lot of discussion among the drivers (or is it media driven)
on the safety aspects of running in the wet without traction control.

I find it hard to understand how its is any less safe. the cornering speeds are lower
simply due to the lack of mechanical grip although high speed corners are less effected due to down force and air density.

if, lets say, your rear wing suddenly stops doing its thing properly you spear of into the nearest barrier. if this occurred in the wet you starting velocity would be
slightly slower and thus equally as safe if not more so.
the inherent safety of race track doesn't change overly much (i.e. run off areas and arresting barriers) so how is it deemed less safe

there may be a increased risk of crashing but it is surely not 'less safe'

I side with Kimi on this “And if anybody doesn't like it they can always go and do something else.” (http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?PO_ID=41625)

drive to the conditions is the mantra on the road surely it equally applies here

what do you lads and lassies think ?

[Principessa]

During wet races I believe it might form a problem. Especially if you watch the races where the rain was POORING down like in Germany and Japan. Look what happened in Germany...how many drivers went off (even if they were on wet weather tyres) and the crash of Alonso in Japan. And this was with TC.

If you watch winter testing, you will see that the traction control ban makes people spin more and go off more often. During the last test session of 2007 there were 34 accidents which is really a lot in my opinion.

See what Hamilton declares: First he says that it's great fun driving without TC, but as he went off 2 times yesterday he said it was due to the TC ban. What a contradiction !

I just want to say that I can really understand the safety concerns expressed by Coulthard, Webber, Button and Massa. I think that there are a lot of drivers who don't really think about the dangers that the sport brings with them. You notice that the more experienced drivers are the ones to express their concerns. There hasn't been a fatal accident since Senna in 1994, but last year we came very close with Kubica. So I think we should take the concerns serious!

[mahesh248]

whats the problem , was it not the same way some 10 years back when there was no traction control and the cars were still running around properly.Spa 98 for example .

[Principessa]

Compare speeds from 10 years ago to speeds from now! Formula One has changed a lot!

[Steven]

Well, you can argument that cornering speeds have increased yes, but it wouldn't really matter. I would say that the cars have also become far safer and stronger. I am pretty sure that a car from 1997 would not pass even a single crash test that the FIA conducts now.

Therefore I totally agree with Jarno Trulli. He looks forward to it as it can allow drivers to have more influence in the car's performance. And yes, crashing is just part of racing, there is a limit. I think it has become too easy recently, just pushing the throttle as much as you can, any baby can do that really.

Jarno is however aware of the dangers and thinks it may cause more errors. The good thing is however that it can allow for more overtaking. I think TC is gone and should remain gone. Those who are afraid should stay away from the sport. I'm not going to repeat myself, but I can name a few guys who would not whine and push their cars onto the magic thin red line

[axle]

See what Hamilton declares: First he says that it's great fun driving without TC, but as he went off 2 times yesterday he said it was due to the TC ban. What a contradiction !

I didn't think he was moaning though...he was having fun, but got it wrong twice whilst experimenting. If you never get it wrong you're not pushing hard enough. I expect lots of them to fall off, mainly cause of the changes to the engine braking on the limit in a corner. So as they know what they can and can't get away with. Practice make perfect after all

Also if the engineers know what the limits are they can work on extending them

[modbaraban]

The TC ban must be okay under two conditions:

1. tracks must to be safe and prepared for 'unexpected' accidents (like on of Kubica @ Montreal), cos we are to see more of these with no TC.

2. something has to be done to the rain tires (like more grip and bigger radius to increase ride hight)

If these things stay as in 2007 F1 may have issues with no TC on the dry and will certainly have issues on the wet.

[DaveKillens]

Wow, there's so much that can be argued pro or con. But first, let's wander back down memory lane to the distant past of just a few generations ago. Back when I was a diaper-messing snot, drivers were expected to die. The mortality rate in Grand Prix drivers was such that at least one would die every season. And back then, the general consesus was that drivers were supposed to shut up and drive, and not diminish their manhood by voicing petty safety concerns. But thanks to the efforts of many who cared (special note: Sir Jackie Stewart), safety has evolved not only technically, but socially. I'm old enough to remember when we used to hear about tragedy on a regular basis. Not yearly, but every few weeks some driver somewhere had perished when racing. Let's not go back there.
But then again, racing is an inherently dangerous sport, and the drivers are supposed to deal with changing track conditions. Will they slow down to sane and prudent speeds in the rain? Of course not, they are racers.
It's a tough call, but this time it's the driver's responsibility to learn to use the gas pedal more prudently.

[Principessa]

Nice to put it that way Dave! But when it's a race that will decide on the title...which driver will hold back than? No matter what the circumstances are. Let's not forget that motorsport drivers think about only one thing when they are racing: winning and to do so they must think about nobody else but themselves.

I can really understand Coulthard! Some media and old drivers are laughing with DC for his comments saying he should change sport, but I admire him as he is willing to say what many other drivers think! He has been there during the time that there wasn't TC and during the last years with TC...nobody should underestimate him and his wisdom

[Giblet]

If senna could put down 1400+ HP in qualifying trim without traction control in the wet, then anyone can do it right?

[dumrick]

If senna could put down 1400+ HP in qualifying trim without traction control in the wet, then anyone can do it right?

If Senna's teammates could do it, why not?

[nae]

touchy topic all round, i personally am undecided and prepared to watch this season to allow my opinion to develop.

but i side with , if you crash you drove to fast for the conditions, no more of this flat out lap after lap and getting away with it nonsense.

hmm maybe i am biased

i dont see how its is 'less safe' there may be more accidents but that isnt a definer of saftey, maybe on the roads but surely the skill is to keep it all together for a whole race

it is what makes motorcycle racers a tad more god like (if there is such a fantasy being)they crash it hurts and being out for even a couple of races plays on the championship

i certainly dont want to watch another weekend like imola 94. i am not morbid

i reckon FA and his 'playing the long game' might stand him in good stead

[Tom]

You raise a good point Dave, but from my reacent readings (christmas brought a few autobiographies) the old days where drivers used to die almost weekly in some race or other, the majority were due to mechanical failure or the car not being designed to be brought back under control once control was lost.

Another christmas surprise was Tune to Win by Carroll Shelby, the second chapter is entirely about tyres and it mentions alot how they have evolved so that drivers can now feel when they are loosing grip and when they start to go over the limit they probably won't go spearing off the track anymore. This book was written in the late 70s, imagine how much things have improved now.

Ordineraly that would be my point made, but with the events of '07 (mainly Kubika) the drivers mortality is far more apparent, I think its good that driver are still looking at ways to improve safety and I certainly don't think less of them for it, at the end of the day they're the ones driving the cars and they're the ones that will be carted off to the hospital if it all goes tits up, as long as they're not carted off to the morgue.

Obviously there is no right or wrong answer, I think all the drivers will get in their cars and race hard whatever the conditions this year, I won't fully agree that the conditions are unraceable until one of the drivers thinks so, enough to pull out of the race.

[mx_tifoso]

What about the conditions GP2 experiences? They also run without TC. Although they have less output, they also have less downforce. And they aren't having all these problems.

Yes yes, I know that these two formulas are very different, but they are still somewhat comparable.

[nae]

aside from the actual drivers view point i think the likes of DC is missing the point.

there is a chance one might crash out of a race
one can only crash out of the race once
in the wet there is an increased chance of crashing out
but still one can only crash out of it once

therefore i cant see how it is less safe to race in the wet

does that make sence ?

its the old rolling a dice question
roll a d6 once and the chances of a 6 are 1 in 6
roll it a million times and the chance is still 1 in 6

or that is at least the point i think i am trying to make

also DC is a GPDA spokes person so it is his role to bring up safety where he can