traction control and wet weather

[Belatti]

If senna could put down 1400+ HP in qualifying trim without traction control in the wet, then anyone can do it right?

Its important to say that with turbo lag those 1400+HP came at high rpm so there where not major problems with traction in low corners.
Besides that, Senna was an alien. Period.


I´m not morbid, too. As nae dont wanna see a black weekend again. But it would be nice to see driving errors more often. Now the most sensitive driver will prevail. I like Kimi´s opinion (as usually) very much. If you don´t like it, go away!

Apart from that, TC ban will afect more after slow corners, chicanes and hairpins (during accelerations) and that doesn´t seem to generate very high speed crashes. Kubica´s accident was a driving error. Before that the only heavy crashes I remember where Ralph at indy (tyre defect) Michael Schumacher broken leg at silverstone (driving error) and Burti (driving error) in Spa 2001.

I had to search for 7 years to find 3 or 4 hard accidents that has nothing to do with traction problems.

[CMSMJ1]

The drivers will just have to deal with it. I see there will be many more drivers dropping the car on entry rather than spinning on exit as I would say that the lack of controlled engine braking is more of a sea change than lack of "classic" TC.

Bring it on... It will be superb. Remeber Monaco 1997 and Spain 1996 - Wet weather drives where the driver made the difference.

[bizadfar]

If senna could put down 1400+ HP in qualifying trim without traction control in the wet, then anyone can do it right?

Well in qualifying in ideal conditions you don't have a car infront of you (spray).
Those cars had a much wider track.

Schumacher '99 i recall was due to brake failure?

[Rob W]

I'd like to know.. how are they going to police the ban?

The reason traction control was allowed in the first place was it was becoming impossible to police. I remember Heinz Harald-Frentzen saying he could hear the car he was following under t/c when it was banned...

I know they'll have the universal control unit now but surely smart people will find ways around this?

R

[mtek]

I'd like to know.. how are they going to police the ban?

The reason traction control was allowed in the first place was it was becoming impossible to police. I remember Heinz Harald-Frentzen saying he could hear the car he was following under t/c when it was banned...

I know they'll have the universal control unit now but surely smart people will find ways around this?

R

That was the reason in the first place a "common" ecu was chosen - so that there would be no need to monitor different proprietary systems from each team.

I guess we'll see on the track more wet racing action like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jyrbvi4hqQw

[Ciro Pabón]

I repost the image that describes the new ECU, that was "interred" in the Regenerative Systems thread.



You can see clearly that it has several systems on board devoted to "police" the software, including a direct connection to FIA computers. So, Mr. Frentzen can be in peace, unless they find a way to hack it, a proposition so risky that I don't think any team dares to consider it.

The key to the policing is the ADR/SDR unit, described extensively in the new regulations.

On topic, what I wonder is why tracks aren't forced to use permeable or porous asphalt, the best way I know to avoid the mist that blinds drivers. In my usual style, an image is worth a thousand words (in my case, two or three thousands... ).

Regular (top) and porous asphalt (bottom part of the picture) side by side


Before someone says that the open asphalt will clog, you can use a CT-Scanner to check it, and resurface if necessary before the race: The Patient’s Name: Scanning Porous Pavements in a CT-Scanner. We also wrote about how can you avoid degradation of tyres, ages ago, when you use this kind of pavement, if someone is interested I might look for it.

I agree totally with Mr. Coulthard: driving under such conditions is abominable, unless you happen to be Senna and you're in third position or better, or the mist will blind you easily. I don't remember where I read a description (perhaps by Mr. Coulthard himself? I'm not sure) about how you have to drive "by ear". Not funny.

I wonder if night vision googles could be adapted to be able to see through the mist... hey, that's (perhaps) a good idea.

[modbaraban]

That's interesting, Ciro. But is the porous asphalt grippy enough when dry?
It seems to have lesser contact area.... Then I would say SLICKS

[Ciro Pabón]

That's interesting, Ciro. But is the porous asphalt grippy enough when dry?
It seems to have lesser contact area.... Then I would say SLICKS

Well, Modbaraban, actually it offers more grip. The problem with open asphalt resides in tire degradation and more rolling resistance (and thus, more fuel consumption), as I mentioned in my previous post. Are you blind, people? Nobody seems able to extract a few words from my 5.000 words posts! I wonder why... BTW, that's why I write in bold face some phrases, in hopes you read them.

Here is a "short" post on the subject, don't tempt me to write more about it... Driving in the rain.

Relevant quote:

"Nowadays I suppose any decent track uses porous asphalt for safety reasons, to allow the water to drain through it when it rains, and minimize the mist during races. In this case you have conflicting goals: the more porous the asphalt, the more it wears the tires. There are mixtures with double layers that don't degrade tires so much while mantaining porosity."

Yes, I know that I'm talking about tire degradation and not lateral friction, but I think they are correlated. If you wish to see graphs for rolling resistance (again, not friction), I posted them here, in the "long" post I wrote on this: Race Track Design.

[Belatti]

You can compare asphalt with sandpaper. Porous asphalt is like a bigger grain size sandpaper, more abrasive, thus more debastating for what rubs in it.

An idea would be to alternate different asphalts, porous in straights (where you must prevent mist and tyres dont degrade) and "common" asphalt in curves (less mist is produced with less speed).

Beyond that, Coulthard always can pull the "Lauda"

[Rob W]

You can see clearly that it has several systems on board devoted to "police" the software... unless they find a way to hack it, a proposition so risky that I don't think any team dares to consider it.

It's over six weeks before the first race and already there is talk of people circumventing the systems to ensure no-one has any T/C.

http://www.planet-f1.com/story/0,18954, ... 11,00.html

This wont be the last time either I'm sure.

R

[Ciro Pabón]

Yes, I know. But the story I've heard is that they're using limited slip differentials, not the ECU, and then only for launching.

I bet Jarno is right, but I don't assume they do it by cheating the easy way.

I understood that differential control is behind the gas pedal control and settings for entrance, curve and exit you can see at the Ferrari F2008 thread (in the picture of the steering wheel displayed there). Anyway, under the rules, this is not TC, I think.

You have to assume something similar will be used for starting the race.

In the end, we will have something like TC without the ECU, through other mechanisms. Besides, you could guess that ANY accident this year will be attributed to the lack of TC, so I don't think this ban will last, unless FIA luck and "safety wisdom" continues.

Allow me to rant (it's been a while since the last one!)

It's hard to claim you're the "pinnacle" of racing, when the car in my garage is ages ahead of F1 cars with respect to active safety. How do you counteract that tendency?

If the "drivers aid" lynching continues forever, and I don't think so, I bet a future supercar will be able to outrace an F1.

Actually, it's easy to guess that in a couple of decades, robotic driving will be feasible. This day, the kind of racing we have nowadays is doomed: who wants to see somebody doing by hand a thing that is already automated? So, unless F1 racing takes seriously the new skills that will be needed to control the new kind of computer assisted cars (achieving new speeds through a blending of man and machine, like Luke and R2D2 ), racing will become a boring spectacle.

Mmmmmm... "computer assisted car". It has a ring to it.

For example, many years ago, spark timing was advanced by hand. I think nobody argues today for going back to the "old times" and demand drivers adjust the spark while driving.

Whew, ranting feels good. Sometimes I think that's what Internet was made for...

[mcdenife]

Allow me to rant (it's been a while since the last one!)

Yes it has been a while, what took you so long? and I couldn't agree more with your rant (as usual).

cheers

[modbaraban]

Yesterday I watched an interesting series of PitStop show on Russian DriveTV channel.
Mikhail G. Gorbachev, the USSR race driver and champion, and currently journalist, the author of many books on performance driving and racing physics etc. was the guest in the studio.

The series was dedicated to racetrack design and construction. So he mentioned the attempts to use that porous asphalt for racetracks. Gorbachev claimed that the idea turned out to be a failure since the porous asphalt doesn't have the necessary horizontal load structural resistance (if that's the right term to use ) I.e. the road surface itself undergoes deformation due to high longitudinal and lateral loads applied, but it's okay for public roads where vertical loads matter most.

Any comments on this, Ciro?

[nae]

computer controlled cars

??!!??

we have them already, there is no need for the 'variable human component' as it is

it is entirely feasible to have a car drive itself round the race track, lap after lap
like a metronome , wouldn't be a sport tho just a exercise for universities

http://www.topgear.com/content/news/stories/2398/

and thats harder as this are ment to be processed as they happen

oh and whilst i am thinking , if you follow the logic that a diff is part of traction control then so is a tyre, a wheel bearing etc, as for with out them there would be no traction

[Belatti]

computer controlled cars

??!!??

That would be nice only to create a car with ABS, active suspension, TC, ground effect, big fat slicks, free engine design (only capacity limited) and see what laptimes would a car do (thus have a comparison to what rules do).

It would be the fastest car ever!
Any bored billionaire who wants to give it a try?