more cheating for mclaren...

[Ciro Pabón]

Shaddock is completely right (hi, Shaddock, welcome. Sorry, I haven't seen your previous posts ).

For example, until 2005, at Monaco, most of the teams (except the first four) had to store stuff in the car parking lot.

So, if McLaren takes the last postion they must use a "regular" motorhome instead of the huge one they normally use. The only advantage I see is more space for working on the car.

Besides, the first team get the spot closer to the entrance, not to the exit. This means that you have less chance of exceeding pit lane speed, as you are already braking to stop at your "first position". That advantage is minimal. It is also harder to enter the "running" lane when somebody comes, already moving from one of the spots closer to the entrance. The last team also have the slight advantage of a "straight" exit (you don't have to jink so much to the left when you reenter pitlane, as Giblet said).

[Belatti]

I´m reading a lot of BS (BS for BiaSed) in this thread. Lets summarise:

1) Schuey won by crossing the finish line in the pits was not cheap, it was a clever interpretation of the rules. I think the winner should be smartest team overall, not only the team who built the fastest car. And I mean smartest, not cheater. Smartest. If you are fast but are a stupid planning your race you don´t deserve to win, because you are not the best and the best deserves to win. Now that was smart and technically legal.

2) POL: how many years old are you? I´ll ask again: why is that cheating? why it is not marketing? Do you really want a non-McLarened 2008? If I was a Ferrari fan I would always want McLaren to be in, if not you cant beat one of your biggest rivals. Its like watching a Football (soccer for gringos, BTW, why do they call it American Football, if they barely use their feet?) World Cup without Brazil, if Argentina wins that cup I would feel like a bit empty. Do you want to see a championship like 2005 Indy?

3) Why don´t they build same sized pits? Why 5th place and not 4th or 7th or 2nd? If you aren´t going to be in the first pit, then, regarding the race, its all the same, regarding the space, maybe not.

4) Bernie owns F1, doesn´t matter what position he is occuping. If he says: Ferrari should win a WC, so be it. If he says, Macca to the front, so be it. If he says Mosley in or out, so be it. If he becomes a Jew and take a Sabbatical year, we will be bored for a year. If he says: race at night in the country I want, that will happen, till the time he sells his shares. Its a bussines. They all play their business with us as a tool.

5) Every F1 team has cheated and will cheat of they find a hole in the rules. If you know a team that has never cheated, its because it has not been discovered. You can generalise and consider a team as a "always" cheater, but mind that there are hundreds of honest men working hard in it that doesnt know about what the team is cheating in. Just having a bigger budget can be considered cheating. But also remember budget caps doesnt work. So, I conclude justice isnt perfect, justice is only a reflect of our own non-perfect humanity.

6) Light green people wanted dark green people to sit at the back cause they care about them, statistics says that the back is safer for frontal crashes. The dark green man who once sitted at the back of the bus, now will be president of the FFF. In Australia, light green people are assuming they where wrong and cruel for hundred years, I agree. The same should be done with all native american people. In fact, all the millions in gold "exchanged" for mirrors should be reimbursed by forgiving all South American external debts by FMI or World Banks.

Piss, out!

"Hay que ganar con la menor trampa posible"

[Ciro Pabón]

What is the FFF? And, what did you have for breakfast today?

A final comment on this trivial issue: cheating or no cheating, McLaren was stripped of points. They should pay their penalties, don't you think? They were definitely caught, following your own argument. This includes abiding by the rules all the other teams abide, one of them about pit position. It's not the end of the world. Don't tell me that because their motorhome is smaller they won't compete in the championship.

Besides, the fifth team could protest and we will be in another infinite thread arguing about that. That could be worse than anything... I could die of boredom.

[modbaraban]

I´m reading a lot of BS (BS for BiaSed) in this thread.

I'm not Try it, it's simple and saves time.

cheerz

[ben_watkins]

It's also a complete rumour that's uncorroborated.. :^o

I'm following modbaraban, and not reading any BS, especially from P_O_L

[dumrick]

Good thing about this forum: even if you skip all the BS, you still have a lot to read

Also, even a thread that started from a rumour has 4 pages with lots of constructive ideas concerning related stuff.

Anyway, I can't see the logic behind the pit allocation being THAT important for a team's chances. Less space isn't a factor that can't be overcome for a team like McLaren. In the case of a simultaneous pitstop with competitors, it's even easier to control when you are getting your driver back on track in front of anyone else. Specially, they would have a lot of time to react to a Ferrari driving all the pitlane at 90 km/h until they would reach McLaren's pit space. That is assuming that the team would compromise their tactics in real time to get that track position advantage.

[Zack]

I find it unfair ...now last pit for Force India

[jshaw]

What I don't understand is why Mclaren are portrayed as the 'villans' and Ferrari are the angels, lets not forget that Nigel Stepney, and employee of none other than Ferrari, was responsible for leaking information to Mclaren, yet despite this Ferrari get away with virtually no punishment and go on to underservedly win the constructors championship (although I do think Kimi deserved the drivers championship), and I can't remember very much about it but didnt Ferrari appeal against the original ruling by the FIA, if things were the other way round and Mclaren were in Ferraris position I somehow doubt that the FIA would have accepted the appeal, so I don't think it is very fair to say that Mclaren are getting off lightly, when infact Ferrari have got off incredibly lightly themselves, as employees of both Ferarri and Mclaren were involved, I think Ferrari and Mclaren should have both had their constructors championship points removed.

Also lets not forget that only 2 people ONE from each team were involved, yet it seems to be made out that the whole Mclaren squad are cheats, just because one employee cheats doesnt mean they all wanted to, this happened as without the rest of the team knowing as far as I know!

Its a shame that Ferrari can't put it all behind them and shut up now, they whined their way to the 2007 constructors championship, which in my opinion they deserved about as much as Mclaren! I fear that 2008 will be another year in which the best whiners win races instead of the fastest, where results are decided by events off, rather than on the track!

[P_O_L]

""What I don't understand is why Mclaren are portrayed as the 'villans' and Ferrari are the angels, lets not forget that Nigel Stepney, and employee of none other than Ferrari, was responsible for leaking information to Mclaren, yet despite this Ferrari get away with virtually no punishment and go on to underservedly win the constructors championship (although I do think Kimi deserved the drivers championship), and I can't remember very much about it but didnt Ferrari appeal against the original ruling by the FIA, if things were the other way round and Mclaren were in Ferraris position I somehow doubt that the FIA would have accepted the appeal""

So because Ferrari found out they had a rogue employee and sacked him, the team should be punished and not mclaren or stepney? That doesnt sound very logical.

Mclaren admitted it had the information, was deemed guilty of possesing highly detailed design info and still got away unpunished. The chairman of the spanish autosport federation asked msoley for a further hearing wich was granted at first, but cancelled after new evidence surfaced that mclaren was lying in the first hearing. That was the reason they got thrown out of the constructorschampion and the heavy fine.

Therefore it would be a travesty to allow that cheating team a few places further up the grid as 100 million dollars is peanuts to mclaren and mercedes. If a higher gridposition gives better pitboxes it should be regarded as a gain in competition tools wich goes against the idea of punishment, hence me saying they will be cheating if allowed.

O, and for our argentinian member: the only big rival to Ferrari are Renault and Williams. Mclaren was nowhere for years untill suddenly they gained some speed last year. As it turns out, with a questionable designed car. If you consider all things mclaren have done to us the fans, thye should be thrown out for at least 60 years imo.

[Sawtooth-spike]

hahaahahaha nowhere for years hahaahahahahaha, wow that have really made my day

[jshaw]

So because Ferrari found out they had a rogue employee and sacked him, the team should be punished and not mclaren or stepney? That doesnt sound very logical.

As far as I know, same applies to Mclaren, Mike Coughlan was a rogue employee who has been sacked.

It took TWO people for this to happen, TWO rogues, Nigel Stepney was willing to share information and therefore had done wrong, therefore Ferrari should have recieved punishment, however we all know how the FIA seems to love Ferrari. If anyone can back up your view that the whole of Mclaren are cheats then I stand corrected, however nobody has as yet, so I think you are telling me a different version of the 'truth' here.

and still got away unpunished .

So a £100 fine and the removal of all constructors championship points is not a punishment?!

Therefore it would be a travesty to allow that cheating team a few places further up the grid. If a higher gridposition gives better pitboxes it should be regarded as a gain in competition tools wich goes against the idea of punishment, hence me saying they will be cheating if allowed.

Hmm, please inform me, I thought grid positions were determined in qualifying? Unless you mean championship position, anyway, I beleive a pitbox has a negligable effect on racing performance!

O, and for our argentinian member: the only big rival to Ferrari are Renault and Williams. Mclaren was nowhere for years untill suddenly they gained some speed last year. As it turns out, with a questionable designed car.

Ok, ive checked the results going back about 10 years, and Mclaren are consistent top 10 finishers, far from 'nowhere'!

If you consider all things mclaren have done to us the fans,

Like what, I tell you what if any team has had a more negative impact on me as a fan, it is Ferrari, not only because they rather broingly dominated from 200-2004, but also because they resort to dirty play and whinging whan challeneged, their whinging at the moment is making them less popular with the fans, who want to put 2007 behind and actually want to see some proper racing this year, if Mclaren were nowhere, this whole thing wouldnt have been uncovered, but because Mclaren were a threat to Ferrari, the FIA swiftly intervened and made sure Ferrai won yet again!

thye should be thrown out for at least 60 years imo.

Good sir, you are well and truly a master or exaggeration! In truth the whole scandal was a minor incident, blown out of all proportion by the whinging team Ferrari, now the spoilt bunch have their constructors championship, you would think they would shut up, but no they have to keep digging up things that don't matter anymore, I am sure everyone else wants to move on and have some good racing in 2008. So now we adopt the policy of 'anyone who is faster than Ferrari MUST be cheating', so why don't we throw out BMW, because there beginning to become sucessful, maybe throw out Renault for cheating too if they improve this season, maybe Williams, throw 'em all out, so that we have 2 red cars on the track always winning, yeah great for Ferrari, crap for true F1 fans who wan't to see fair competeive racing, where he who crosses the line first wins, not who has the loudest mouth!

[Carlos]

jshaw -- A little OT perhaps -- All Whingage and Waffleage aside -- is that cool avatar a racing Marcos?

May -- I also Welcome you to the most cordial forum in the universe of Formula 1 -- Welcome.

Edit - Very Cool Car http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ginetta_Cars

[jshaw]

jshaw -- A little OT perhaps -- All Whingage and Waffleage aside -- is that cool avatar a racing Marcos?

Yeah sorry, I tend to rant excessively, just bear with me!

The avatar is a Ginetta G20 GT4, the one I hapened to be lucky enough to drive round in circles for a year until the money ran out

May -- I also Welcome you to the most cordial forum in the universe of Formula 1 -- Welcome.

Thankyou and hello:P I have been lurking this place for many a year though

I apologise that I had to start my posting here in such a 'negative' fashion

[Ciro Pabón]

Welcome, jshaw. Nice car. "Caramba", Carlos, good eye.

As you probably know, we have threads for ranting (specially the ones that mention the relative performance of teams and drivers and the ones that mention regulations and conflicting sanctions) and we have threads for learning (specially the technical ones). Do not sweat it, being cordial does not mean we have to agree on everything. We also understand people when they "get out of their shirt", like P.O.L. seemed to do for an instant. BTW, I agree with most of what you say: it's not the end of the world if McLaren gets a preferential treatment, as most big teams do. I can also see the point in P.O.L.'s comments: hey, the guys were punished for one of the most embarrassing problems in the history of the sport, maybe they shouldn't get a blank slate for 2008 so easily... Where I live we say that "the law is for the people that wears ruanas". That's a ruana, poncho or sarape (a cloth used by farmers and by many colombians, me included):



Definitely, Dennis is no farmer...

On thread, the important thing (at least for some latins, argentinians included, if I may speak in my friend Belatti's name) is that this special treatment they get out of education from the marshalls and out of respect to their history and it does not change the general balance of things. Anyway, I like more the teams that behave in a gentlemany, cool way, like Williams. If I were boss at McLaren (yeah, sure) I would refuse the special treatment, but I would expect it to be offered to me. Let's hope we find somebody in the grid, besides Sir Frank that learn how gentlemen behave. This kind of people is rare nowadays.

On a side note, Williams will reach the 500 GP mark at Monaco. At some point during the championship they will reach their 50.000 lap. I suppose the older and more experienced you are, the cooler you behave.

[Ray]

What I don't understand is why Mclaren are portrayed as the 'villans' and Ferrari are the angels, lets not forget that Nigel Stepney, and employee of none other than Ferrari, was responsible for leaking information to Mclaren, yet despite this Ferrari get away with virtually no punishment

So I guess if a member of your family, in your household, robbed a bank you should all go to jail?