Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[amho]

Hi, there is some claims in this forum that Honda is 150 hp down to Mercedes that made me curious to do some estimation to assess the situation so I did my calculations based on these parameters:
-front area: 1.442 m^2 based on measuring-scaling Ferrari photo(pic link in follow)
-Air density: 1.225 kg/m^2
-car weight: 628 kg
-rolling coefficient: 0.015 (in the worst case)
-After a quick search on the net I found that Cd changes from 0.7 to 1.2 based on aero. configuartion for these F1 cars so I considered three different drag coefficient: 0.7, 1, 1.2 to compare different scenarios.
-I assumed qualifying speed traps(Alonso for Honda: 316.6 km/h , Stroll as fastest Mercedes: 328.6 km/h, Bottas the slowest Mercedes: 321.1 km/h)

and final result:
-If we consider Cd equal to 0.7 then Honda power deficit to fastest Mercedes is 65hp and the slowest Mercedes only 24 hp!
-If we consider Cd equal to 1 then Honda power deficit to fastest Mercedes is 95hp and the slowest Mercedes 35 hp!
-If we consider Cd equal to 1.2 then Honda power deficit to fastest Mercedes is 114hp and the slowest Mercedes 41 hp!
correct me if u see any mistakes.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B4O-M ... k41RmNlUE0
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B4O-M ... DhXQ3VfOG8

I presume you estimated a wheel diameter, calculated wheel torque required to overcome the total resistance and then calculated power from torque using the same engine speed for all cars ? Unfortunately in this case the results are very sensitive to gearbox ratios.. hard to distinguish between a difference in power and a difference in gearing.

No I didn't used torque and wheel radius method that u mentioned. (U mean this : P=TorquexRpm ,Torque=Fxr)
-----------------------------------------------
I used the following equations:
P=FxV
Where
V as car speed
F=drag force+rolling resistance force
Drag force=0.5xRhoxCdxAxV^2
Rolling resistance=(rollig coefficoint)xMxG

[JuanjoTS]

Can you indicate the source of your information?



The most affordable to change in two weeks would be the crankshaft, with the same measures but a more rigid material.

Utter bullshit! cranks are steel, young's modulus is about 200GPa. That varies by less than 5% across most grades of steel.
also, 2 weeks to change a crank forging is unheard of even in F1.

finally- the crank is very stiff compared to other elements in the driveline (input shaft for example). Increasing stiffness won't do a thing.

Assuming that they started work after Australia, however if they were working on a new crank since testing, it's maybe, almost, kind of, sort of possible. Although they'd be changing a critical component and would probably cost them a power unit.

They should not take into account the maximum number of engines, they must use all those necessary to be competitive and attack next year's world title.

[63l8qrrfy6]

Hi, there is some claims in this forum that Honda is 150 hp down to Mercedes that made me curious to do some estimation to assess the situation so I did my calculations based on these parameters:
-front area: 1.442 m^2 based on measuring-scaling Ferrari photo(pic link in follow)
-Air density: 1.225 kg/m^2
-car weight: 628 kg
-rolling coefficient: 0.015 (in the worst case)
-After a quick search on the net I found that Cd changes from 0.7 to 1.2 based on aero. configuartion for these F1 cars so I considered three different drag coefficient: 0.7, 1, 1.2 to compare different scenarios.
-I assumed qualifying speed traps(Alonso for Honda: 316.6 km/h , Stroll as fastest Mercedes: 328.6 km/h, Bottas the slowest Mercedes: 321.1 km/h)

and final result:
-If we consider Cd equal to 0.7 then Honda power deficit to fastest Mercedes is 65hp and the slowest Mercedes only 24 hp!
-If we consider Cd equal to 1 then Honda power deficit to fastest Mercedes is 95hp and the slowest Mercedes 35 hp!
-If we consider Cd equal to 1.2 then Honda power deficit to fastest Mercedes is 114hp and the slowest Mercedes 41 hp!
correct me if u see any mistakes.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B4O-M ... k41RmNlUE0
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B4O-M ... DhXQ3VfOG8

I presume you estimated a wheel diameter, calculated wheel torque required to overcome the total resistance and then calculated power from torque using the same engine speed for all cars ? Unfortunately in this case the results are very sensitive to gearbox ratios.. hard to distinguish between a difference in power and a difference in gearing.

No I didn't used torque and wheel radius method that u mentioned. (U mean this : P=TorquexRpm ,Torque=Fxr)
-----------------------------------------------
I used the following equations:
P=FxV
Where
V as car speed
F=drag force+rolling resistance force
Drag force=0.5xRhoxCdxAxV^2
Rolling resistance=(rollig coefficoint)xMxG

What I said still stands. The only way to calculate the power is to know how the car accelerates against a known load. Not the largest load that it can shift.

[amho]

If you consider two recorded speed traps on the straight line then obtaining the related work and recorded time, these only give u delta of power between two points so it not helpful for two car power comparison.(delta of power=delta of work/time

[63l8qrrfy6]

If you consider two recorded speed traps on the straight line then obtaining the related work and recorded time, these only give u delta of power between two points so it not helpful for two car power comparison.(delta of power=delta of work/time

you are meant to assume constant acceleration then calculate total work by integrating drag between the 2 points. This way you eliminate the issue of cars having different corner exit speeds.

What you have done is calculated the power developed at the instant the speed was measured.
This is NOT the maximum power of the car - it is the power at an arbitrary point therefore it cannot be used for comparison (unless corner exit speeds are identical - and they are not).

[JuanjoTS]

It is not easy, it took years to couple it to the f1 standard. It's not my theories, it's just what I learn to read.

https://youtu.be/L2Qv6wdZ9f4

The concept is to copy the diesel cycle as much as possible, autoignition by compression. Neither is my theory, is what I read.

Where did you read these things? Nothing in that video supports what you're saying.

You can read it in many places. The video explains the Mercedes system, if you do not understand it go back to see all the times you need ... the title says it all.

https://tecnicaformula1.com/la-f1-apuesta-motor-diesel/

[63l8qrrfy6]

It is not easy, it took years to couple it to the f1 standard. It's not my theories, it's just what I learn to read.

https://youtu.be/L2Qv6wdZ9f4

The concept is to copy the diesel cycle as much as possible, autoignition by compression. Neither is my theory, is what I read.

Where did you read these things? Nothing in that video supports what you're saying.

You can read it in many places. The video explains the Mercedes system, if you do not understand it go back to see all the times you need ... the title says it all.

https://tecnicaformula1.com/la-f1-apuesta-motor-diesel/

1. No one knows what Merc use, AC said it's not TJI.
2. Your source is shite.
3. I'm just generally irritated by you

[JuanjoTS]

Where did you read these things? Nothing in that video supports what you're saying.

You can read it in many places. The video explains the Mercedes system, if you do not understand it go back to see all the times you need ... the title says it all.

https://tecnicaformula1.com/la-f1-apuesta-motor-diesel/

1. No one knows what Merc use, AC said it's not TJI.
2. Your source is shite.
3. I'm just generally irritated by you

1 tji can not be set to f1
2 the --- is what they put on the head instead of gray matter
3 The solution is to bang your head until it faints.

PD: Stop bothering addressing me and enlighten the world with your intelligence.

For whom it may concern.

http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/opini ... t-ignition

[PlatinumZealot]

That has been beaten to death on here.
And your Spanish website looks like it is a victim to transnational losses.

[JuanjoTS]

That has been beaten to death on here.
And your Spanish website looks like it is a victim to transnational losses.

You go and look for the second injector ...

[PlatinumZealot]

Don't you know the difference between theory and facts? Everybody else is stating their personal theories, but you are the only one spouting unsubstantiated claims as facts.

When you have the Honda RA617 cylinder head on your desk take a few photos and send them this way.

[JuanjoTS]

Don't you know the difference between theory and facts? Everybody else is stating their personal theories, but you are the only one spouting unsubstantiated claims as facts.

When you have the Honda RA617 cylinder head on your desk take a few photos and send them this way.

If you think are personal theories, if I do I am a jet of claims without foundation ... Keep on giving opinions and leave your opinion, for the moment there is no second injector and with the subject of combustion faster it seems that it is not right either. Will you decide only when you have the Honda head on the desk?


http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/opini ... t-ignition
"Slowing down and better controlling the spread of the combustion flame and delaying the onset of detonation (or knock) has brought big gains."

[Singabule]

Easy Man, let him write whatever he want. What i found interesting in the SAE paper, the geometry of nozzle has a straight effect on how capable that nozzle to ignite the lean AF ratio and the ignition delay. So it is possible to direct Any jet that you want across the main chamber, or it is possible to have jets opening from side of main cylinder, as wazari give us food for thought? I think it is possible. And how to load fuel on pre-chamber? The answer May you can direct the fuel to nozzle itself at compression stroke. So the real problem is to create extremely precise injector.

[JuanjoTS]

Easy Man, let him write whatever he want. What i found interesting in the SAE paper, the geometry of nozzle has a straight effect on how capable that nozzle to ignite the lean AF ratio and the ignition delay. So it is possible to direct Any jet that you want across the main chamber, or it is possible to have jets opening from side of main cylinder, as wazari give us food for thought? I think it is possible. And how to load fuel on pre-chamber? The answer May you can direct the fuel to nozzle itself at compression stroke. So the real problem is to create extremely precise injector.

Electronics seems fundamental as you say.

[PlatinumZealot]

You guys regurgitating old stuff from 2014 and littering the thread. Back to the Honda Power unit.

P.S. Juanjo, you shot your self in the foot with the page you linked to.

http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/opini ... t-ignition