Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

[wuzak]

Not a chemist. But if I may... Is it possible to have drastly different burn rate proprties for between two fuels? (If that is the proper term). Say you have a qualifying fuel that is dyanamite but has higher burn temperture and poor fuel mileage... And on the other hand a race fuel that burns a bit more cooler and stable and produces better atomization perhaps ot some crap like that?

Thoughts?

Not sure if the FIA would be too keen on that. But it isn't banned.

19.7 Fuel approval :
19.7.1 Before any fuel may be used in an Event, two separate five litre samples, in suitable containers, must be submitted to the FIA for analysis and approval.
19.7.2 No fuel may be used in an Event without prior written approval of the FIA.
19.7.3 No competitor may have more than five fuel formulations approved for use during a Championship season.
19.7.4 No competitor may have more than two approved fuels available during an Event.

So, if you can make a qualifying fuel it reduces the number of available improvements during the season.

[The_table]

Even in the turbo era there was a certain octane rating they had to stay below(102 if i'm not mistaken)... so they mixed N-heptane with the toluene to get the desired rating.

(Btw i think the FIA would ring some bells if teams started to bring qualy-fuel unless everybody was doing it.)
Unless they manage to hide it in plain sight in some seemingly insignificant additive but even then, dramatic differences in burn rate would be picked up.

I think oil is the more interesting avenue to look at since it is very "open" in the regulations.

[dren]

Not a chemist. But if I may... Is it possible to have drastly different burn rate proprties for between two fuels? (If that is the proper term). Say you have a qualifying fuel that is dyanamite but has higher burn temperture and poor fuel mileage... And on the other hand a race fuel that burns a bit more cooler and stable and produces better atomization perhaps ot some crap like that?

Thoughts?

I think it is a good idea if there is enough of a boost in fuel content to do so. I would expect more than just Mercedes would do this. Most likely all the teams with ties to the major oil companies?

[Muniix]

Even in the turbo era there was a certain octane rating they had to stay below(102 if i'm not mistaken)... so they mixed N-heptane with the toluene to get the desired rating.

(Btw i think the FIA would ring some bells if teams started to bring qualy-fuel unless everybody was doing it.)
Unless they manage to hide it in plain sight in some seemingly insignificant additive but even then, dramatic differences in burn rate would be picked up.

I think oil is the more interesting avenue to look at since it is very "open" in the regulations.

Oils would definitely be optimised each day even hourly. With SAW sensors, surface acoustic wave sensors you have a full lab on a chip to check engine oil properties before and after use. There would be a SAW sensor in the dry sump measuring viscosity and particulate matter and the usual temperature, pressure.

[Muniix]

Recent Bosch inlet port water injection tech blurb; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CVvwGZYFyQ
I'd be curious to know if the H2O also helps keep the inlet valve clean, by scalding problematic deposits off...

I think the research shows you need a --- load of water to achieve effective cleaning. The Chinese published some interesting papers recently.

[F1PuertoRico]

Water injection can increase power output too

[Tommy Cookers]

[quote=wuzak post_id=692116 time=1492467924 user_id=12512]
[quote="Tommy Cookers" post_id=692072 time=1492452711 user_id=13644]
[quote="shady"]
....... FIA still mandates that the fuels cant be too far off whats available.
[/quote]
except things like octane number being unlimited
(it has been limited to a 'best road fuel' value from 1958 until 2014)[/quote]

I don't think that last part is true.
Since the turbos were banned in the late 1980s the octane rating has been regulated, as far as I know. Before that?
In the turbo era the fuels became rather exotic.[/quote]

1958 F1 intended to use road fuel, this was immediately changed to 100/130 Avgas (as the only standard available everywhere)
1961-2013 F1 used 'road' fuel ie ON limited (and of course no available oxidant ie nitromethane etc)
eg Monza's 1976 attempts to disqualify Hunt's Mclaren for having 101.6 ON

turbo fuels evolved to very high density to evade the power-limiting intent of new rules limiting fuel quantity by volume
and the high density ingredients eg toluene conveniently evaded the power-limiting intent of the ON limit rule
toluene's MON is much higher than its RON, ie at high rpm and temperature it is far more detonation resistant than road fuel
(RON is a 600 rpm test with 13 deg ignition timing - MON is a 900 rpm test with ideal ignition timing)
road fuel's MON is close to its RON of course

ie turbo fuel behaved rather like a 120 octane road fuel would have

now the fiddling is built into the rules via unlimited octane no
ie no upper limit of ON (but a lower limit of 75 to prevent diesels)
though the FIA pretends this is road-style fuel

there's about 20000 known hence legitimate ingredients of our fuel
a few will have abnormally high ONs
a simple example of this variability - iso-octane has an ON of 100, octane has an ON of minus 12 or something

[J.A.W.]

Recent Bosch inlet port water injection tech blurb; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CVvwGZYFyQ
I'd be curious to know if the H2O also helps keep the inlet valve clean, by scalding problematic deposits off...

I think the research shows you need a --- load of water to achieve effective cleaning. The Chinese published some interesting papers recently.

H2O is fairly inexpensive though, & if used as a standard fitment..
..then perhaps it will inhibit the problem with DI poppet inlet valves, viz: 'fungus' - 'growing', on the valve?

[Muniix]

It is strange that they can't turn up the engine for one or two laps during the race to bust out a gap...
(It seems they only turn up the engine for Q3....so either it's torture for the engine or they are using a very limited resource...)
..

If one turns up the engine for two laps it runs less efficiently meaning they have to conserve for the rest of the race cancelling any benefit and then some, increasing the time to complete the race everything else being equal. A net loss unless they carry extra fuel mass which slows them down until they burn it.

[FW17]

Merc fuel tank vent feeds air into the compressor during qualifying Q3

Fuel tank is filled with hydrocarbon gases, most likely derived from the same race fuel (not a small volume 120 liters or so) with some pressure. This will give them the additional fuel volume for more power.

[Tommy Cookers]

hydrocarbon so-called gases are a natural ingredient ie in solution in the gasoline fractions
but are removed because they are more valuable in their own right, only when removed do they appear as gas
they are outstanding here if added within the limits of fuel composition rules (having very good combustion properties and very high calorific value)
the boiling point requirement will limit the fuel blend in this respect

but yes, apparently would be even more valuable used differently

[The_table]

It is strange that they can't turn up the engine for one or two laps during the race to bust out a gap...
(It seems they only turn up the engine for Q3....so either it's torture for the engine or they are using a very limited resource...)
..

If one turns up the engine for two laps it runs less efficiently meaning they have to conserve for the rest of the race cancelling any benefit and then some, increasing the time to complete the race everything else being equal. A net loss unless they carry extra fuel mass which slows them down until they burn it.

I was thinking at the start of the race actually, put in a couple of flyers and then maintain.

[wuzak]

Merc fuel tank vent feeds air into the compressor during qualifying Q3

Fuel tank is filled with hydrocarbon gases, most likely derived from the same race fuel (not a small volume 120 liters or so) with some pressure. This will give them the additional fuel volume for more power.

I do not believe this is legal.

[J.A.W.]

Article on importance of 'light ends' in 'hi-test gasoline' -for racing applications..

http://www.dynotechresearch.com/blog/ar ... r=2015#308

[PlatinumZealot]

So are we accepting that they have a special qualifying fuel then?