Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[DiogoBrand]

I was doing some simple maths here, considering Vettel's 326km/h top speed and Alonso' 314, considering that top speed is proportional to the cube root of power and a best case scenario (McLaren running the same drag as Ferrari, which is unlikely), and the result is a 10,6% deficit. For a 950hp figure that would mean a 101hp deficit.
So Alonso's statement of "more than 50hp deficit" is still quite optimistic.

What if the deficit is not because of ice but because of ers

Well, since I'm pretty sure the 900bhp+ figures are obtained via ICE plus ERS, then we can't tell if the deficit comes from the ICE, ERS or both. But I don't think it matters at the end of the day since they aren't used separately anyway.

[PlatinumZealot]

What if the deficit is not because of ice but because of ers

It is definitely the ICE.

When we consider issues it may true but if we are talking about power and best speed, addressing only ice power is not / can't be true. If Honda PU can use 5 second less mgu-k power, engine has 160 bg less power for 5 sec. This is just an example. We can not say directly there is 100 bg deficit ice power side just looking max speeds

Honda achieved parity with ERS power output a long time ago. Everything else is held back by the ICE.

[MrPotatoHead]

It is definitely the ICE.

When we consider issues it may true but if we are talking about power and best speed, addressing only ice power is not / can't be true. If Honda PU can use 5 second less mgu-k power, engine has 160 bg less power for 5 sec. This is just an example. We can not say directly there is 100 bg deficit ice power side just looking max speeds

Honda achieved parity with ERS power output a long time ago. Everything else is held back by the ICE.

ERS power output is not the same as ERS power output over time though.
Unless you mean the entire ERS regeneration and deployment achieved parity. Which I don't think is the case.

[MrPotatoHead]

Honda used Magneti Marelli injectors(Ferrari's supplier) during the pre-chamber single cylinder test but they was not used in the finish product.(reason.....either Ferrari didn't allow it or more to the fact that Honda likes to go around patents by designing their own)

I wonder if that could be one of the reasons it worked in the single cylinder test but not in the final product?

You know they used MM injectors for sure?
That's not who I would guess.

I have my own theories about the single cylinder vs full engine package differences.

[godlameroso]

It is definitely the ICE.

When we consider issues it may true but if we are talking about power and best speed, addressing only ice power is not / can't be true. If Honda PU can use 5 second less mgu-k power, engine has 160 bg less power for 5 sec. This is just an example. We can not say directly there is 100 bg deficit ice power side just looking max speeds

Honda achieved parity with ERS power output a long time ago. Everything else is held back by the ICE.

How can that be true when the ICE determines ERS recovery and by extension output as well. If the ICE is bad ERS is bad, you can't have good ERS without a good source of power for it. And seeing as the cars are only allowed to charge their batteries out on track, it follows that a good ICE will give you good ERS. Maybe the Honda ERS is more sophisticated a bit more efficient than other teams, but it's output is still limited by the thing feeding it energy. I wonder if Honda can achieve the same thing that Ferrari claims with their ERS. 50+ seconds at max output per lap is quite a large figure, far more than 33.33 seconds at max output.

[godlameroso]

Honda used Magneti Marelli injectors(Ferrari's supplier) during the pre-chamber single cylinder test but they was not used in the finish product.(reason.....either Ferrari didn't allow it or more to the fact that Honda likes to go around patents by designing their own)

I wonder if that could be one of the reasons it worked in the single cylinder test but not in the final product?

You know they used MM injectors for sure?
That's not who I would guess.

I have my own theories about the single cylinder vs full engine package differences.

They used MM injectors made to Honda specs.

[PlatinumZealot]

We need to get Muramasa over from Autoport. Need another Japanese to make this Honda thread feel more authentic.

[Sasha]

Honda used Magneti Marelli injectors(Ferrari's supplier) during the pre-chamber single cylinder test but they was not used in the finish product.(reason.....either Ferrari didn't allow it or more to the fact that Honda likes to go around patents by designing their own)

I wonder if that could be one of the reasons it worked in the single cylinder test but not in the final product?

You know they used MM injectors for sure?
That's not who I would guess.

I have my own theories about the single cylinder vs full engine package differences.

Yes during test program before their own design was ready.

What is your theories?

[SameSame]

When we consider issues it may true but if we are talking about power and best speed, addressing only ice power is not / can't be true. If Honda PU can use 5 second less mgu-k power, engine has 160 bg less power for 5 sec. This is just an example. We can not say directly there is 100 bg deficit ice power side just looking max speeds

Honda achieved parity with ERS power output a long time ago. Everything else is held back by the ICE.

How can that be true when the ICE determines ERS recovery and by extension output as well. If the ICE is bad ERS is bad, you can't have good ERS without a good source of power for it. And seeing as the cars are only allowed to charge their batteries out on track, it follows that a good ICE will give you good ERS. Maybe the Honda ERS is more sophisticated a bit more efficient than other teams, but it's output is still limited by the thing feeding it energy. I wonder if Honda can achieve the same thing that Ferrari claims with their ERS. 50+ seconds at max output per lap is quite a large figure, far more than 33.33 seconds at max output.

It must definitely be solely the ICE. They all have charged batteries and can use the full 4 MJ for qualifying.

Also, as mentioned many times by Hasegawa, the more efficient the ICE is the less energy there is to be recovered by the MGU-H.

[Sasha]

We need to get Muramasa over from Autoport. Need another Japanese to make this Honda thread feel more authentic.

Muramasa is just getting his info from the Japanese Racing Press.Honda is alot more open to their own countries press.(In Japan,you must treat press like Gods....they like gifts... to get them to come to your event or write about you)

[Vortex37]

I think that is a potentially good concept - as a replacement for petrol and diesel road car engines. Adapting the technology to a racing engine with 110% VE and 15,000 rpm capability is another matter (a big stretch actually). OTOH TJI adapts easily.

Reading up on the Merritt engine some more - the downside from testing is a 50% reduction in power output because of the pumping losses.
This is no surprise. And very much limits any use of it in racing.

Who suggested that it would be a useful engine for racing! Really! Go and sit on the naughty step

Reading the site and using a bit of imagination, I think there are potential answers to some of the problems being speculated about in the last few weeks posts about Honda's pre-chamber and combustion instability. Quite obviously you would not use the same designs as linked. Couple that with all the research/patents on pre-chambers and I think it gives a direction. People questioned unspent gases left in the chamber, which would be a relatively small amount. Using a vortex/swirl technique you could end up with an inbuilt micro EGR¹. The other issue that received many posts, was the AFR in the pre-chamber, and how it might not be sufficient to ignite. With the vortex/swirl you have separation of fuel and air in an axial pseudo stratification. The fuel will concentrate on the hot side and should easily ignite. A short time looking at Patents for 'tji' and associated, will show that swirl is the preferred design path. The pre pre-chamber or as Merritt calls it - spark plug shroud - suggests an orientation for the igniter in the chamber, and NO, not his design. Then we have the jet stream out, which can easily be envisaged as a way to control an axial stratified charge in the main chamber. To that end you might also stagger the inlet valve opening to introduce swirl - something that Honda have researched and previously implemented.

¹Could this mean that in ordinary operation you might need marginally less fuel at higher engine speeds?

[Vortex37]

Good read.

You know, your post was so "prosey" I just skipped over it. Totally ignored it. I only noticed it by another user's reaction to it. Not that I am important audience or anything, but I always suggest that users make use of a profile picture and also add some visual descriptions in the post so we can separate the wheat from the chaffe more easily. So many new posts in the thread each day I dont even care to read all of them anymore. Sensible or not, all the pictureless posters and their posts are just one grey blur. I can't be bothered to strain my eyes I just scroll through like my money clip.

Anyway great post. Glad I noticed it.

Posting the how it works section for others who want to get to the meat of it:

https://www.pureburnengines.co.uk/how-it-works

The design is not TJI for anyone wondering.. But i think it could very well provide similar benefits. It achieves low heat transfer by remote combustion in a sort of vortex chamber. Lean burn is also achieved.

I dont know how it would fit with four valves per cylinder but it should be possible.

@PlatinumZealot

Thanks. Re 4V -I mentioned in another post today, that you could stagger opening of the two inlet valves to induce swirl in the main chamber. This is something that Honda already did with their V-Tec.

In another post I put a composite photo of some tji devices from a number of Patents. I noticed that you posted a picture of a real one. Not sure if this paper was linked to. (auto deletes after 7 days) Judge for yourself the quality of the research, but it makes some interesting points about tji that I think are relevant to this thread and what we posted previously.

[kfrantzios]

I was doing some simple maths here, considering Vettel's 326km/h top speed and Alonso' 314, considering that top speed is proportional to the cube root of power and a best case scenario (McLaren running the same drag as Ferrari, which is unlikely), and the result is a 10,6% deficit. For a 950hp figure that would mean a 101hp deficit.
So Alonso's statement of "more than 50hp deficit" is still quite optimistic.

Comparing top speeds is quite irrelevant. What is the power deficit between two teammates with the same engine that have 10km/h delta? Continuing a conversation based on an irrelevant hypothesis is quite illogical.

[DiogoBrand]

I was doing some simple maths here, considering Vettel's 326km/h top speed and Alonso' 314, considering that top speed is proportional to the cube root of power and a best case scenario (McLaren running the same drag as Ferrari, which is unlikely), and the result is a 10,6% deficit. For a 950hp figure that would mean a 101hp deficit.
So Alonso's statement of "more than 50hp deficit" is still quite optimistic.

Comparing top speeds is quite irrelevant. What is the power deficit between two teammates with the same engine that have 10km/h delta? Continuing a conversation based on an irrelevant hypothesis is quite illogical.

Well, then we'll have to agree to disagree. From my knowledge, power was always a determinant factor in top speed, and looking at this link I haven't seen a deficit of 10km/h between any pair of teammates:
http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2017/05/13/2 ... -analysis/

[GoranF1]

Brundle saying planed Honda update canceld.