Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[MrPotatoHead]

What is the gap now vs the end of last season?

And it is definitely not a simple thing to catch up to Mercedes.

[MrPotatoHead]

from listening to this discussion; Honda's problem may well be bureaucratic in nature. The engineers may know the right thing to do and how much resources they need to do it. However, they probably have no power to influence the leadership; who may well be ignorant to what it takes to get results out of an F1 program.
This also explains why we say it should be easy to make heads and pistons in a week etc etc. but Honda just doesn't seem to be able to do it. Maybe they have a very cumbersome approval process to get the work moving?

I would say it's more a cultural thing than an ignorant leadership thing.
The Japanese are a very polite and respectful culture and they tend to follow leadership and not speak out and question them. Spend some time in Japan and you will see this.
Honda also has a lot of young engineers.

[godlameroso]

What is the gap now vs the end of last season?

And it is definitely not a simple thing to catch up to Mercedes.

Last year Alonso was 1.52 off pole, he was 1.3sec off RAI in FP2, if the gap is maintained they're essentially .2 closer to the lead as they were last year.

[makecry]

What is the gap now vs the end of last season?

And it is definitely not a simple thing to catch up to Mercedes.

Last year Alonso was 1.52 off pole, he was 1.3sec off RAI in FP2, if the gap is maintained they're essentially .2 closer to the lead as they were last year.

How much of that could be the chassis improvement and how much PU? What do you reckon, I hope the Q3 surprises us. I feel McLaren spoke up a bit early, they should have waited how the Canada race goes.

[J.A.W.]

Yeah, best be careful with bringing up 'Honda culture' - in this thread Mr P-H..
I mentioned it earlier, & was censured for being 'racist' ( & off topic, technically - to boot, too!)..

'The Honda Way' is of course, a noted fact, & does project fully into their facets of motorsports competition..
( I also note that Honda has a long history of top-class FIM racing, with a similar 'breakthrough or break' - approach)..

[godlameroso]

What is the gap now vs the end of last season?

And it is definitely not a simple thing to catch up to Mercedes.

Last year Alonso was 1.52 off pole, he was 1.3sec off RAI in FP2, if the gap is maintained they're essentially .2 closer to the lead as they were last year.

How much of that could be the chassis improvement and how much PU? What do you reckon, I hope the Q3 surprises us. I feel McLaren spoke up a bit early, they should have waited how the Canada race goes.

It's a hell of a feat if they're able to compete for points in spite of the power unit. It's hard to say, the Honda engine is much more compact than last year's engine and has much better weight distribution which can't be ignored. On the other hand McLaren has been working on this chassis for a few years. I'd say the chassis is closer to being competitive than the power of the engine, but both still need some work.

[j.yank]

Not really. Ferrari last year was better than Honda this year. You are not getting the whole situation correctly assessed. Honda's PU is slow and sucks in reliability. The season is 1/3rd in and they already are taking penalties, this has not happened for any other PU manufacturer, even Renault.

We still hadn't seen what is the level of Honda this year - they are in process of development of split turbo Mercedes style and prechamber ignition, all of this in single year - if they succeed, this will be serious achievement. No other team has done this before. Also, still if you compare McLaren form this year with Ferrari last year, my claim is still valid - this year is 4th for McLaren, and the last year was 5th for Ferrari. This is natural to have reliability issues with such steep curve of learning.

With good reason I'm afraid. The longer split turbo has only marginal benefits and was singularly the trickiest part of the entire Mercedes concept. Taking it on was a fools errand I'm afraid, especially when you are trying to master other unfamiliar concepts such as the combustion concept at the same time and you're still playing catch up to the other manufacturers.

There's a very good reason Ferrari, even with their dozens of former Mercedes PU engineers, still completely ignored it. It's just not needed to catch or better the Mercedes design and it takes far too long to master with too many knock-on effects until you do so.

The idea is to try and speed up the recovery process to catch the other manufacturers rather than create unnecessary hurdles for yourself. Refusing to copy the proven combustion techniques in favour of running R&D on your own ones but happily copying the hardest but low yielding component like the longer split turbo is just unfathomable to a F1 teams mindset. It's purely engineering posturing instead. Hence Brown's comments about appearing lost and needing an F1 culture in Sakura.

A silly decision that could prove terminal to the relationship I fear.

I wouldn't say that longer split turbo has marginal benefits. This affects the cooling, the mass balance of the car, and the potential size of the compressor. What we see this year as Ferrari leveling Mercedes is more due to their successful work with the tires, not because they have more powerful or drivable PU.

[wuzak]

I wouldn't say that longer split turbo has marginal benefits. This affects the cooling, the mass balance of the car, and the potential size of the compressor. What we see this year as Ferrari leveling Mercedes is more due to their successful work with the tires, not because they have more powerful or drivable PU.

The affect on the air from heat transfer is most likely minuscule compared to the heat added through the compression process. You should note that Ferrari's cooling package is more compact.

The envelope of the engine is defined in the rules, as are the mounting faces for the chassis and gearbox. I don't see the front mounted compressor being of great advantage in mass balance. In fact, the front mounted compressor probably pushes the engine back further when compared to the back of the cockpit. And it makes the induction air follow a tortuous path to get to the compressor eye.

Going bigger on the compressor is most likely not necessary at this stage. Ferrari and Renault both have big enough compressors.

Ferrari may not be more powerful than the Mercedes, but it is very much a match in race mode, if not the qualifying/overtaking mode.

[wuzak]

What is the gap now vs the end of last season?

And it is definitely not a simple thing to catch up to Mercedes.

Last year Alonso was 1.52 off pole, he was 1.3sec off RAI in FP2, if the gap is maintained they're essentially .2 closer to the lead as they were last year.

Ferrari and Mercedes are running in little old lady mode in Friday practice, and Ferrari are most likely using old engines too.

Sure, McLaren would have theirs turned down too, but there is less scope for turning them up in qualifying compared to Ferrari or Mercedes.

[wuzak]

If it was really that easy Renault wouldn't be consistently languishing behind the other power units. Renault has consistently been behind both Mercedes and Ferrari, and Honda is nearly at the same power as Renault. It's not as easy as people say, if it were Red Bull would be closer to the front. Honda is improving faster than everyone else, but they've changed their power unit to a greater extent than all the other manufacturers. They've essentially started again from scratch, what Mercedes has had 3 race seasons to develop and mature, Honda has had to do it in 6 months, and people are surprised this was going to happen? The gap to the front is .2 seconds less than it was at this time last year, regardless of what people say they have improved. Compare that to the start of the season when they were 2.6 seconds off the pace, the gains are there but McLaren is behind in pit crew and strategy which makes it even harder to maximize their opportunities.

Honda nearly at Renault level - that surely is blind optimism?

Maybe they are the most improved since the beginning of the season, but I would question that they are from last season to this.

[henry]

from listening to this discussion; Honda's problem may well be bureaucratic in nature. The engineers may know the right thing to do and how much resources they need to do it. However, they probably have no power to influence the leadership; who may well be ignorant to what it takes to get results out of an F1 program.
This also explains why we say it should be easy to make heads and pistons in a week etc etc. but Honda just doesn't seem to be able to do it. Maybe they have a very cumbersome approval process to get the work moving?

I would say it's more a cultural thing than an ignorant leadership thing.
The Japanese are a very polite and respectful culture and they tend to follow leadership and not speak out and question them. Spend some time in Japan and you will see this.
Honda also has a lot of young engineers.

Would you say that Renault also have cultural issues in trying to reach the performance levels of Mercedes and Ferrari? Or is it just that what those two are doing is pushing the limits of understanding of combustion and electrical control?

Back in the days when Red Bull excelled at aerodynamics involving Exhaust Blown Diffusers I don't recall people claiming cultural reasons why Williams couldn't make it work at all. They just didn't understand it.

Honda's key issue appears to be one of ambition. They want to build the most powerful, most compact, best packaged power unit in F1. Renault, on the other hand, have shown that just attempting one of those goals, power, is not only not easy but not yet possible with their resources.

[mrluke]

Honda nearly at Renault level - that surely is blind optimism?

Maybe they are the most improved since the beginning of the season, but I would question that they are from last season to this.

It's what the data says. Honda have been there or thereabouts with Renault for some time. Wazari said they finished last season with a difference to Renault of single figures (contrary to popular belief). They had a wobble at the start of the season while they got the pu working, but when it does its a match for Renault.

[kfrantzios]

The gap to the front is .2 seconds less than it was at this time last year, regardless of what people say they have improved. Compare that to the start of the season when they were 2.6 seconds off the pace, the gains are there but McLaren is behind in pit crew and strategy which makes it even harder to maximize their opportunities.

The gains are there for sure but reliability is not!

[Thunder]

Honda nearly at Renault level - that surely is blind optimism?

Maybe they are the most improved since the beginning of the season, but I would question that they are from last season to this.

It's what the data says. Honda have been there or thereabouts with Renault for some time. Wazari said they finished last season with a difference to Renault of single figures (contrary to popular belief). They had a wobble at the start of the season while they got the pu working, but when it does its a match for Renault.

.... and then came the Race on Sunday where they have to save Fuel like no one else...

Peak Power is only a small Portion of these PU's, sustained Power and Efficiency are key.

[Joseki]

The ability to not take penalties and have engine failures every session is also important.