Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[wuzak]

Suppose you bring an update, and it provides you 10kW at the crank, but an extra 25kW at the turbine that's ~30kW extra power compounded, that alone is worth .5 per lap. Honda is behind but not as far back as you think, considering what they need to improve. Consider that they could have helped Honda if they were really that far back but left them to their own devices. Brawn and company know what the power units are capable of, if they refused to give Honda help then the truth is they're not as bad as they appear.

How could Brawn help Honda?

And I think your dreaming if you think a 25kW gain is possible in the turbine with a smaller gain in the engine. Given that the Mercedes is probably making no more than 60-70kW at the MGUH.

[drunkf1fan]

Suppose you bring an update, and it provides you 10kW at the crank, but an extra 25kW at the turbine that's ~30kW extra power compounded, that alone is worth .5 per lap. Honda is behind but not as far back as you think, considering what they need to improve. Consider that they could have helped Honda if they were really that far back but left them to their own devices. Brawn and company know what the power units are capable of, if they refused to give Honda help then the truth is they're not as bad as they appear.

Sorry but, you're talking in hypotheticals, nothing more or less. Vandoorne finished 106 seconds behind Hamilton, that isn't a hypothetical, that directly tells us they need over 2 seconds more per lap to compete with Mercedes... but by the time they gain 2 seconds Mercedes will have gained more time again. You're saying one bump alone could be worth 0.5 seconds a lap, but we've failed to see anything of the kind from updates from honda in the past 2.5 seasons, you're acting like 0.5 improvement is easy despite not happening and ignore that it would be less than 1/4 of what they need. That is conservative because Kimi was struggling on tires, Vettel was worse and once Ham got a 12 second lead he started mostly cruising outside of wanting the fastest lap. 106 was Vandoorne pushing to get a point while Hamilton was cruising, the 'real' gap would be likely quite a bit bigger.

AS for the rest, wow, talk about going in circles to come up with the conclusion you want, because Brawn didn't help Honda(he has no legal ability to pass on other peoples data/information/technology to Honda at all) this means Honda aren't that bad. In reality Mercedes considered helping out Honda precisely because they are so far behind and it's bad for the sport to have someone frankly being rather embarrassing. 2 points, 2 points for a team outspending all but 3 other teams by a huge margin is a joke.

Honda are as far back as I think, I can tell because every race they show where they are in relation to the front. Also don't forget that Honda and Mclaren put the target for Honda at winning races and going for titles, getting into 8th to 10th is an improvement, but still a complete failure for the target they have.

Don't forget that Merc and Ferrari had an engine upgrade, but likely in the next race that means Williams, FI and Haas get a upgrade too. Honda's needs to be making bigger steps than Merc/Ferrari/Renault to catch so potentially Vandoorne pulled in 2-3/10ths a lap for Silverstone, but those teams will pull that time back out on Mclaren at the next race when they get their upgraded engines.

[ziggy]

True to a total extent, while combustion chemistry is not fully understood, and simulating all the species propagation is still difficult even for combustion chemists(even the ones that are developing the fuel), the modeling itself is not too concerned with 10^18 species but around 10 or 12 main reaction groups. If your models can accurately describe experimental results in a wide variety of conditions it's huge. It cuts down the trial and error process, it allows you to see combustion in more clarity than any other way, because with your simulations you can see in time scales that the naked eye can't. If you have good model correlation with experiments you can see combustion reactions in pico second scales.

You can try out new combustion strategies, new stratification mixtures, alter pistons, heads, cylinder ports, valve seat angles, spray patterns, injection timing, system back pressures, MAP, without having to touch any raw materials. Think of how much time is saved when you can make a virtual power unit, instead of having to manufacture countless physical iterations, then build the actual power unit and have it be 96% in line with your simulations. Such numbers are already possible without Honda sized budgets, imagine what you can do with the resources of the largest engine manufacturer on the planet.

As I understand Honda did just what you propose. They simulated and researched too long. There comes a time when you have to try your theory. When they tried it, it was a catastrophe, as we all know. Simulation only gets you nowhere. You have to try it out. So trial and error is still very importatnt. CFD in this field just isn't there yet to rely fully on it. Remember Nick Wirth and Virgin? Remember Mclaren octopus exhaust? They both relied on CFD and simulations and failed badly. They also learned from it, but the hard way...

[etusch]

Sorry but, you're talking in hypotheticals, nothing more or less. Vandoorne finished 106 seconds behind Hamilton, that isn't a hypothetical, that directly tells us they need over 2 seconds more per lap to compete with Mercedes... but by the time they gain 2 seconds Mercedes will have gained more time again. You're saying one bump alone could be worth 0.5 seconds a lap, but we've failed to see anything of the kind from updates from honda in the past 2.5 seasons, you're acting like 0.5 improvement is easy despite not happening and ignore that it would be less than 1/4 of what they need. That is conservative because Kimi was struggling on tires, Vettel was worse and once Ham got a 12 second lead he started mostly cruising outside of wanting the fastest lap. 106 was Vandoorne pushing to get a point while Hamilton was cruising, the 'real' gap would be likely quite a bit bigger.

AS for the rest, wow, talk about going in circles to come up with the conclusion you want, because Brawn didn't help Honda(he has no legal ability to pass on other peoples data/information/technology to Honda at all) this means Honda aren't that bad. In reality Mercedes considered helping out Honda precisely because they are so far behind and it's bad for the sport to have someone frankly being rather embarrassing. 2 points, 2 points for a team outspending all but 3 other teams by a huge margin is a joke.

Honda are as far back as I think, I can tell because every race they show where they are in relation to the front. Also don't forget that Honda and Mclaren put the target for Honda at winning races and going for titles, getting into 8th to 10th is an improvement, but still a complete failure for the target they have.

Don't forget that Merc and Ferrari had an engine upgrade, but likely in the next race that means Williams, FI and Haas get a upgrade too. Honda's needs to be making bigger steps than Merc/Ferrari/Renault to catch so potentially Vandoorne pulled in 2-3/10ths a lap for Silverstone, but those teams will pull that time back out on Mclaren at the next race when they get their upgraded engines.

As You said ham is far front of mclaren Honda but he also front of other Mercedes too. So racing in midfield makes some gap. İn the same time Williams and force indias not have big gaps to mclaren. Williams overtake Vandoorne at pitstops. They uses merc PU.

[fellowhoodlums]

We are now at a stage in engine maturity whereby others can only now make marginal gains.

Honda still has big steps to take. Renault are potentially catchable with Oct update, then target getting close to Ferrari power by end of year. Merc is tougher for sure.

[Thunder]

That's the same Story that is being told since 2015..... Others hit a ceiling, Honda catches up.... Yet here we are with Ferrari and Merc bringing *marginally* upgraded Engines that negate everything Honda brings.

Honda would actually have to make one of those big Steps for this to be come true somewhen.... I hope they do very very soon.

[fellowhoodlums]

That's the same Story that is being told since 2015..... Others hit a ceiling, Honda catches up.... Yet here we are with Ferrari and Merc bringing *marginally* upgraded Engines that negate everything Honda brings.

Honda would actually have to make one of those big Steps for this to be come true somewhen.... I hope they do very very soon.

I hear what you are saying but we also know that the Honda 2015 engine design was flawed. 2017 engine has the development potential that was limited in the 2015 design. It's been unreliable as hell up to now but......keep the faith.

[alexa]

We are now at a stage in engine maturity whereby others can only now make marginal gains.

Honda still has big steps to take. Renault are potentially catchable with Oct update, then target getting close to Ferrari power by end of year. Merc is tougher for sure.

Honda may catch them one by one on performance level,but reliability will have to wait for years.The main problem is that Honda can't even think about 2021 rules,while others may already considering future concept.

[Logie]

It’s an fking turd engine with some fundamental flaws clearly, I’m guessing Honda have one of the highest if not THE highest budget, to keep this form of unreliability it’s shocking.

I can’t even get my head around how it can be so bad.

What is there to keep faith in? Renault had a bad year and got on top of reliability somewhat, this season they produced an engine that can somewhat compete for a time in races and quali (still, you can say now its unlucky if something goes wrong). How come Honda have not achieved this?

All the data they can collect and they cannot pinpoint is shocking.

[nzjrs]

I’m guessing Honda have one of the highest if not THE highest budget

I don't think that view is held by everyone.

[Craigy]

I’m guessing Honda have one of the highest if not THE highest budget

I don't think that view is held by everyone.

I spoke to an F1 team member on Friday and was told the number that Mercedes spent on their PU program.

Suffice to say, Honda have not spent anything like it. I can say that for sure, because the Honda accounts are public and the number is big enough that it'd make a difference to their group results.

[Wil992]

It’s an fking turd engine with some fundamental flaws clearly, I’m guessing Honda have one of the highest if not THE highest budget, to keep this form of unreliability it’s shocking.

I've always been under the impression that actually the opposite is true, they've underestimated the complexity and therefore the budget required to produce an engine and are operating on a restricted budget compared to the others.

Is there any info on whether Honda have increased the size of the project to address the problems, or are they just pressing on with more or less the same project team? Anyone know?

[Logie]

It’s an fking turd engine with some fundamental flaws clearly, I’m guessing Honda have one of the highest if not THE highest budget, to keep this form of unreliability it’s shocking.

I've always been under the impression that actually the opposite is true, they've underestimated the complexity and therefore the budget required to produce an engine and are operating on a restricted budget compared to the others.

Is there any info on whether Honda have increased the size of the project to address the problems, or are they just pressing on with more or less the same project team? Anyone know?

Being underbudget could be the case but i would guess they can see the problems and where to divert extra funds to help.

[ZakB]

It’s an fking turd engine with some fundamental flaws clearly, I’m guessing Honda have one of the highest if not THE highest budget, to keep this form of unreliability it’s shocking.

I've always been under the impression that actually the opposite is true, they've underestimated the complexity and therefore the budget required to produce an engine and are operating on a restricted budget compared to the others.

Is there any info on whether Honda have increased the size of the project to address the problems, or are they just pressing on with more or less the same project team? Anyone know?

I don't know if that's the case, but their development pace in 2016 certainly wasn't slow. Maybe their budget is lower because they don't have to supply other teams. If money was Honda's biggest problem, I think they would have solved that problem a long time ago instead of being humiliated week in, week out.

[Wil992]

It’s an fking turd engine with some fundamental flaws clearly, I’m guessing Honda have one of the highest if not THE highest budget, to keep this form of unreliability it’s shocking.

I've always been under the impression that actually the opposite is true, they've underestimated the complexity and therefore the budget required to produce an engine and are operating on a restricted budget compared to the others.

Is there any info on whether Honda have increased the size of the project to address the problems, or are they just pressing on with more or less the same project team? Anyone know?

I don't know if that's the case, but their development pace in 2016 certainly wasn't slow. Maybe their budget is lower because they don't have to supply other teams. If money was Honda's biggest problem, I think they would have solved that problem a long time ago instead of being humiliated week in, week out.

Yes, I agree, in 2016 they actually appeared to do a decent job with a flawed design, which makes me hopeful for the future.
The thing is though, they have definitely underperformed this year. Given that they are not idiots and are very clever/talented engineers, I find it hard to understand why. Hence my question about budget, it stands to reason that a team of talented engineers "battling" with another team that has twice the budget and twice the manpower and has a head start is going to struggle.
Just wondered if anyone had any figures, either in terms of budget, or headcount. Ta.