Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[DarkAlman]

I'm not saying it's not balanced, but perhaps it becomes unbalanced by resonating with certain frequencies in the engine/drivetrain.

I think you nailed it on the head. We've been speculating for months that the Honda engine develops an MGU-H drive shaft vibration under certain conditions on the track. Either due to defective bearings that over heat, or unaccounted for G-forces, or vibration in the chassis etc.

Combine this with confirmation that Honda can't effectively simulate on-track conditions on the dynos, it sounds like as good an explanation as any.

"using airplane technology" just sounds like a marketing tag line to say "Someone finally got smart and realized that we have aero engine guys in house so we called them down to fix our problems with the Turbo"


Lando was supposedly running with nearly dry tanks during all the tests. That makes me wonder if they've been testing new parts to improve qualifying performance and top end speed ie Spec 4. Here's hoping!

[MrPotatoHead]

The article mentions precision engineering. Could they use the advanced technology of the airplane division (if applicable) to reduce tolerances in various parts of the engine?

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The equipment used by Honda Jet is off the shelf and available to all.

[Craigy]

Lando was supposedly running with nearly dry tanks during all the tests. That makes me wonder if they've been testing new parts to improve qualifying performance and top end speed ie Spec 4. Here's hoping!

Nah. Mornings were aero work (mostly short runs), afternoons were long runs.

[gofast182]

Saying they're drawing from airplane technology could mean any number of things from material selection, tolerancing/design rules, or outright design. Look at how the turbo and MGU-H are structured and how they operate and I don't doubt there was something worth sharing, even if it was minor.

[coco-bun]

Honda F1 set to use technology from their Airplanes division.

https://news.yahoo.co.jp/byline/kunisaw ... -00074212/

Google Translated:

Since its entry in 2015, Honda F1 continued bad news but bright information came in for the first time! It may greatly evolve toward the end of the game. Apparently it seems to introduce Honda Jet's technical know-how. As you know, the engine mounted on the Honda jet is designed & developed by Wako of Honda Institute of Technology.

Honda Technical Research Institute's main posting received the sluggishness of Honda F1 "If we come this far, we will use total technology, let's have all the technology we can possibly have thought that jet engine technology can not be diverted?" In general, the internal combustion engine where the piston moves up and down, and the turbine engine are considered to be different things. That is why I have not involved so far.

In other words, it is said that it has been driven to that point. I was surprised to see the information and drawings of the F1 Power Unit to the development team of the jet engine in the background, "Wow?" Although details are unknown, precision management seems to be quite different from jet engine. The jet engine is more precise.

In the aircraft industry all parts are made with precision different from cars. Scrap from the aluminum plate such as the structural member of the main wing. For example, if the main wing is 28 m, it has to be cut off from the aluminum plate of 28 m or more. It is impossible to add it. When I saw the automobile production engineer, I was doing incredible things.

The engine is the same. The accuracy required of the jet engine is said to be more than the F1 engine. When I think about it, "Burner 4" used in B777, etc. There is no vibration at all though the fan with 2m 85 cm also rotates at high speed. Furthermore, it is used in the range from the outside temperature of 50 degrees to minus 60 degrees. And it will not be allowed to break.

By examining the power unit of Honda F1 with the concept of "It is the highest level of automobile technology, it seems that it was far from aircraft level". The timing of when Honda jet technology is used as a power unit at any point is unknown, but the Hungarian test after the Hungarian Grand Prix was awesome.

It is said that it will introduce a power unit called "spec 4" from the Belgian GP at the earliest, but this is definitely introducing the concept of Honda Jet. The vibrations that had plagued since the opening began to decline sharply, and it seems that it has come to be able to produce the power as designed. Have you seen more power up toward the end?

If Speck 4 is introduced to the Belgian Grand Prix to be held on August 27, if you fight well without breaking, you can think that it will get better.

[/quote

I posted this in Reddit a while ago, and I commented this should be taken with grain of salt... he's an automotive journalist voted as the most liked and most hated auto journalist. Rumors that his son works for Honda so take that as you will.

If you read the reader comments in the Yahoo Japan article, you'd see that many are dismissing this article... which is why I didn't share it here.

Anyways, just wanted to mention that since you guys are taking this article waaay too serious. I can do another quick and dirty translation later of it helps.

(If any F1 journalists are thinking about rehashing this into an article... please don't).

[PlatinumZealot]

It has to do with getting the MGUH+turbocharger more reliable that is all.
On the piston engine side of it, they can perhaps translate some materials or coatings maybe.. but I see a more reliable MGUH+turbo as the primary beneficiary of this collaboration.

[MrPotatoHead]

It has to do with getting the MGUH+turbocharger more reliable that is all.
On the piston engine side of it, they can perhaps translate some materials or coatings maybe.. but I see a more reliable MGUH+turbo as the primary beneficiary of this collaboration.

I agree. I think help on the MGU-H rotational life is about it.
As far as materials go, most of the materials used in the Jet Engine hot side are banned inside the combustion chamber or not applicable anyway.

[taperoo2k]

I guess they might be looking at direct metal 3D laser sintering. That's one of the bigger developments in
aerospace in recent years. It offers a lot more control over the strength and weight of a part, but it could be a while longer before that appears. The advantage with this technology is that heavier metals can be used. But more than likely it's probably something related to bearings technology.

[MrPotatoHead]

I guess they might be looking at direct metal 3D laser sintering. That's one of the bigger developments in
aerospace in recent years. It offers a lot more control over the strength and weight of a part, but it could be a while longer before that appears. The advantage with this technology is that heavier metals can be used. But more than likely it's probably something related to bearings technology.

That is not the case on the Honda Jet side of things for sure.
There are only handful of additive components that have FAA flight approval as of now and they are all GE parts on the LEAP engine. There are no additive parts in the Honda Jet engine - even with the GE involvement.

Are they using it on the F1 side? Possibly.

[PlatinumZealot]

In axial gas turbines,the wheels are big and the chunky blades are locked into place by a dove-tail mechanism. They have interior cooling passages too. Relatively blocky and heavy compared to a turbocharger turbine. I can see why 3D printing is advantageous to save on tooling for protypes in this application. I don't think the DMLS is necessary to gain an advantage in performance for an F1 turbine wheel (and think of that long shat too!) though.

Some select videos.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vtLtu4ZYsQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=te9OaSZ0kf8

Sometimes more traditional methods give the strongest piece:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFRdp1Js9Kc

[MrPotatoHead]

PZ those Additively produced blades are only for the siemens land based power generation units. FAA won't let any rotating additive parts fly yet because of all the unknowns as far as mechanical properties and lifespan goes.

The most likely places in the F1 MGU-H for additive technology is in laying down material on the MGU-H shaft and that of the turbine housing. Everything else would be made subtractively.

[Bence]

Spin waves, vortexes, compound- and implosion vortexes are extremely underutilized in F1. In the early V6 turbos Honda haven't even used tumble flow ports.

When we start to study nature hard enough, lucky, happy accidents happen - like Viktor Schauberger's entire work, and/or the Dyson vacuum cleaner. If you think of ports as bladeless fans/vortex tubes, you can for example equip them with with guide vanes, and the induction/exhaust efficiency can skyrocket.

"Science" can describe spiral/vortex phenomenons like tornados, underwater ice tornados (ice brinicles), but it can't explain them. Especially the energy density and somewhat "unorthodox" effects in those processes.

[GhostF1]

Is it entirely possible they are just getting some know-how from the guys in the aeronautics division, that's all they are alluding to?
There's a sentence in there that notes when the Jet blokes saw the F1 powerplant diagrams and models they were "surprised?" (wow) by the level of precision in it, noting it to be lower standard than what they are used to in their field.

So maybe just general assistance in precision manufacturing techniques, fluid dynamics familiarity (helpful with turbine flow principles and consequently energy recovery systems?), and what about just general assistance in turbine blade shape/contouring/overall design. I know Honda have made MULTIPLE revisions to the turbine design over the last 3 years and mucking around with blade shape (eg. Canada 2016 turbine update, Hasegawa mentions it was a revision to the turbine itself to help access more harvesting potential from the exhaust that they lost to increased ICE efficiency), so it's obviously an area they are dabbling with a lot, maybe even consultation on compressor stall scenarios/effects and corresponding mitigation tactics, there's likely a large pool of knowledge that could be used in some way.

Either way, I doubt they are being of no use whatsoever to them. I'll take it as good news they are now accessing further resources across the company.

[gruntguru]

As the combustion aims to become more diesel like (in terms or air fuel ratios not the ignition i am speaking of here) . .

Actually there are more similarities than you think (assuming ultra-lean TJI).

The main difference between diesel and SI combustion is the the way in which combustion propagates through the fuel.

In the SI engine this is controlled by flame speed through the pre-mixed air and fuel. Unfortunately the pre-mixed fuel is explosive above the fuel's ignition temperature (high octane # = high ignition temperature) and so must be kept below that temperature as the flame front advances towards the remaining mixture. Failure to achieve this results in detonation.

In a diesel the burn rate is controlled by rate of injection from the nozzle and by the time it takes the fuel droplets to find some fresh oxygen. The latter depends heavily on swirl, turbulence, chamber design, injector design etc. The latter is also the limiting factor which makes it difficult to burn all the fuel near TDC which is necessary for efficiency. This is why diesels are necessarily lower speed engines than SI - they simply need more time to get the fuel burned.

The ultra-lean TJI engine combines the best of both worlds. The pre-mixed air/fuel is so lean it is very unlikely to self-ignite. (similar to the fresh air in a diesel) Combustion rate is initially controlled by the "jets" propagating across the chamber, then by multiple flame fronts advancing through the rest of the mix.

TJI is a significant advance on other stratified charge systems like Honda CVCC which essentially use a rich zone to initiate combustion then heat and ignite the remaining lean zone. Both zones function with a conventional flame front progressing through the mix. TJI uses a tiny fraction of the fuel to create a small rich zone which becomes a rapid ignition source across the entire chamber.

[Bence]

What could Mercedes learn from their DiesOtto concept engine? Whaddayathink?