2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

[ZakB]

The only way you can come out of this in good light ZakB is if Mclaren switch to Renault and they win races next year. And to be honest, i find that hilarious.

When the new engines come in on 2021 who will Mclaren go with ? Because i guarantee Honda will be fighting at the pointy end and whoever has the works contract with them will be foing just fine.
If Mclaren go to Renault then jump ships yet again for 2021 (4 engine manufacturers in 8 years) I can see them struggling with yet another new manufacturer, be it Porsche/BMW/Cosworth. If Honda are struggling, then EVERY engine manufacturer would struggle in the same position.

What about McLaren going with McLaren? Boullier and Brown already suggested that it is a possibility. Renault certainly isn't the perfect option, but it will give them a chance to fight for podium/wins.

Assuming McLaren can make a better chassis to RBR is certainly a very big assumption, MUCH bigger than assuming Honda will improve

Everybody in here acts like Honda is the only manufacturer that can make progress, but Renault, Ferrari and Mercedes aren't sitting still either.

Did you sometime hear or read about diminishing returns? Everbody in here acts like Honda can improve more than their rivals, because that´s the reality, as simple as that. Only Honda haters like yourself act like if that would be impossible or unreal

Gaining 80-85BHP on your rivals in three years, while you haven't produced one decent engine so far. Yeah I could call that unreal and even impossible. McLaren developing a great chassis seems quite a bit more likely.

Sorry but disagree. We´re talking about Honda, not Dacia. Honda cannot allow this disaster, plain and simple, so even when we fans are tired, bored, depressed and some even angry, we all are happy campers when compared to Honda people. I can´t imagine the pressure there must be inside Sakura.

Honda has redesigned their PU completely, they said theirselves that was a very risky movement (something people tend to ignore so they can say Honda has no clue about what they´re doing), but accepted that risk to be able to fight for victories and titles in the future. If they would be happy as a midfielder, they would be using 2016 concept yet. It was good enough to score exactly double point than 2015 and 2017 season togheter, so it was not that bad, but since their target is winning, they threw that PU to the trash and started from scratch


If you assume they´re not stupid, 2018 should be their best season. 2017 problems were predictable and they actually warned everyone about that BEFORE hitting the track, so it´s not that Honda was expecting to win races this year and they performed this poorly, it was Honda who said this season would be difficult but that was one step back to be able to make three steps forward

If I am not wrong Honda admitted not long a go that they underestimated AGAIN the importance adn complications of redesigning the PU.

This sounds like someone is completely lost.

Many rumours around McLaren continue to say that Sakura are still reluctant to accept external technical assistance.

Once again, this doesn´t look like a winning and good colaboration, seriously.

Well, I think it´s pretty clear Honda is a company with no qualms about assuming and even saying publicly what are their faults. That´s different to being lost. Ferrari would have NEVER said that publicly, but that does not mean only Honda made mistakes, only that they´re way way more sincere than european manufacturers.

BTW, I think people usually forget about testing ban and its huge relevance on development process. Mix that with a hugely complicated PU and you´ll realize how brave was Honda entering F1 with some disadvantage to their rivals.

But that´s what happens with brave people, when they loose their bet some people assume they´re stupid

Who cares about sincere. If you know you can't test, you sign people who already have experience with these engines. You sign people from Ferrari, Mercedes and Renault. In F1 there are no excuses like 'new concept' or whatever. They even said they underestimated this new engine, which exactly shows how this project is being lead. Underestimating a new concept, while you have failed for two years, it really blows my mind. But thank god for them being so sincere.

[Thunder]

Did you sometime hear or read about diminishing returns?

Yes, pretty much every Week since the beginning of the 2015 Season.

[Phil]

Gaining 80-85BHP on your rivals in three years, while you haven't produced one decent engine so far. Yeah I could call that unreal and even impossible. McLaren developing a great chassis seems quite a bit more likely.

RedBull have been at the very pointy end of creating exceptional chassis in the past seasons, yet a lacking Renault engine meant that they've rarely been competitive, except on the few race tracks where engine power was less of a factor.

McLaren is hard to judge, because they have been the sole team running Honda engines. Before they did, in 2013 and 2014, the year where engine performance was crucial, they were nowhere. So at this point, it's extremely hard to gauge how good that chassis is of McLaren.

Its quite clear that Renault has only the 3rd best PU. Renault themselves are not confident they'll have a winning package next year. Under these circumstances, one has to ask what is McLarens goal to switch to that same engine. If they fail to match RedBull, their chassis and ability will be exposed. They will hardly fight for positions above 6th, much less podiums. This will not help with getting sponsors.

Staying with Honda wont be better, probably, unless Honda suddenly find their faults and catch up to Renault, which will mean they might actually be in a better position.

If McLaren leave Honda, i think much will be because the partnership broke down to the point it no longer can be saved. Make no mistake though: Redbull would hardly be considering a move to Honda if there was no potential there...

[zxof]

As much as I hate honda (because of the suffering in the past 3 years) I still think there's a potential.
I mean Redbull wanted to steal honda from McLaren back in 2015 before Ron vetoed the possibility.

Perhaps they're thinking, it has been 3 years of learning process surely they'll get it right soon.
After all they suffered none of the painful experience .

[RedNEO]

[Sayeman]

https://preview.ibb.co/nBRAGv/IMG_0789.png

It will be a customer deal, not sponsorship like Honda's...There wont be any Renualt badge up front

[RS200E]

The only way you can come out of this in good light ZakB is if Mclaren switch to Renault and they win races next year. And to be honest, i find that hilarious.

When the new engines come in on 2021 who will Mclaren go with ? Because i guarantee Honda will be fighting at the pointy end and whoever has the works contract with them will be foing just fine.
If Mclaren go to Renault then jump ships yet again for 2021 (4 engine manufacturers in 8 years) I can see them struggling with yet another new manufacturer, be it Porsche/BMW/Cosworth. If Honda are struggling, then EVERY engine manufacturer would struggle in the same position.

What about McLaren going with McLaren? Boullier and Brown already suggested that it is a possibility. Renault certainly isn't the perfect option, but it will give them a chance to fight for podium/wins.

Assuming McLaren can make a better chassis to RBR is certainly a very big assumption, MUCH bigger than assuming Honda will improve

Everybody in here acts like Honda is the only manufacturer that can make progress, but Renault, Ferrari and Mercedes aren't sitting still either.

Did you sometime hear or read about diminishing returns? Everbody in here acts like Honda can improve more than their rivals, because that´s the reality, as simple as that. Only Honda haters like yourself act like if that would be impossible or unreal

Actually diminishing returns isn't appropriate in this situation. There are other factors at work in F1 and these PU's are the most complex ever, so diminishing returns might not arise for another 10 years when there will be new engines anyway. In the V8 era there was imposed equalisation when Renault were allowed to catch up. Kers introduction also threw in a massive differentiator. V10 era Illmor tried to introduce beryllium with McLaren Mercedes which was banned immediately but could have been a great performance boost.

The FIA has been more of a factor and I would suggest that the rules are never stable anough to allow for diminishing returns. It certainly can't be a factor for Honda catching the rest.

[Phil]

Actually diminishing returns isn't appropriate in this situation. There are other factors at work in F1 and these PU's are the most complex ever, so diminishing returns might not arise for another 10 years when there will be new engines anyway. In the V8 era there was imposed equalisation when Renault were allowed to catch up. Kers introduction also threw in a massive differentiator. V10 era Illmor tried to introduce beryllium with McLaren Mercedes which was banned immediately but could have been a great performance boost.

I'd argue diminishing returns can be quite an ambiguous term. What I understand it to mean, is that with every year moving forward, the expected increase in performance will decrease.

Example:

Year 1: 70% of the true potential of the given engine Formula
Year 2: 85% ""
Year 3: 92% ""
Year 4: 95% ""
Year 5: 97% ""
Year 6: 97.7% "

These are just hypothetical numbers to illustrate the point in an exaggerated way, mind you. The point being, once you reach a certain efficiency, the improvement and increase in performance become marginal. Engine A might be at 97.7%, Engine B at 96.3%, Engine C at 95.7%. At that point, the difference in chassis, aero-efficiency and other factors become more important.

This should technically be feasible with the current engine formula because it's not an "open engine formula". There are restrictions in place to ensure where the development takes place. For example: There's the cap on fuel flow and fuel capacity as we all know it. There's also a cap on the ERS component. This makes it an efficiency formula. For the best results, you want the best efficiency, lower weight, less friction/losses etc. How much energy that is inside the fuel is also a factor, especially with teams obviously exploring other means for more power for example, by adding additives to the oil.

Many of these venues will be blocked and addressed by the FIA at the latest next year. The oil limit is being reduced, most recently at Monza, but the methods of measuring how much oil is being used is still rudimentary (According to AMuS they use a oil dipstick). Apparently going into next year, this will be addressed. Also only 1 spec of oil will be allowed for the entire weekend, potentially closing potential loop holes to get more power for quick laps during qualifying.

Of course, there's no way to know how many of these venues Honda has been pursuing with their engine, but it's clear that the steps the FIA is taking will potentially further decrease the gap between engines. While I don't expect all engines to reach parity, I fully expect them to be close enough to each other that on most tracks, chassis and aero will be more important and only at tracks like Spa and Monza to continue to be an advantage to those with more efficient engines.

The fact that only 3 engines can be used next year will also mean that those fighting for championships will only have 3 specs to homolgate. Honda, if they are behind, can still bring more engines (and will) but of course will simply have to endure grid penalties, to further close that gap. This means that the teams at the top will be limited in their engine development throughout their season, unless they are happy to risk penalties as well.

[RedNEO]

https://preview.ibb.co/nBRAGv/IMG_0789.png

It will be a customer deal, not sponsorship like Honda's...There wont be any Renualt badge up front

Most important of all a big boost in power/reliability. Sponsors and everything else will fall into place with that.

[godlameroso]

So after all this time no official announcement, I'm guessing the Renault deal fell through and it's status quo for next year.

[godlameroso]

https://preview.ibb.co/nBRAGv/IMG_0789.png

It will be a customer deal, not sponsorship like Honda's...There wont be any Renualt badge up front

Most important of all a big boost in power/reliability. Sponsors and everything else will fall into place with that.

Minor upgrade, you underestimate chassis integration. Honda and the McLaren chassis has more symbiotic relationship than people imagine, not to mention, when the Honda engine improves by Suzuka/COTA/Mexico they won't have a reason to switch.

I hope McLaren does the smart thing and sticks with Honda.

[RedNEO]

It will be a customer deal, not sponsorship like Honda's...There wont be any Renualt badge up front

Most important of all a big boost in power/reliability. Sponsors and everything else will fall into place with that.

Minor upgrade, you underestimate chassis integration. Honda and the McLaren chassis has more symbiotic relationship than people imagine, not to mention, when the Honda engine improves by Suzuka/COTA/Mexico they won't have a reason to switch.

I hope McLaren does the smart thing and stick with Honda.

I've seen enough of the Honda chassis integeration over the last three years thank you. Torro Rosso can enjoy that now. Meanwhile McLaren can enjoy the same benefits that have helped power Redbull to its podiums and sole victory so far this year.

[fellowhoodlums]

So after all this time no official announcement, I'm guessing the Renault deal fell through and it's status quo for next year.

Certainly makes you that although I would have thought an announcement of status quo would be forthcoming too. Maybe they are trying to work on Alonso now so a good news announcement can be made at same time as no change on engine.

I think Red Bull are keen on taking over as the works team in 2019 with TR as the mule for 2018 and maybe that's the issue? RB have all the cards.

[NathanOlder]

@ZakB

I love how you say all they need to do it take engineers from Mercedes & Ferrari. As if they can just take the top people from the other engine manufacturers. Im sure theres a chance of taking some, but most are probably european and happily settled in Italy or the Uk and not in Japan. If it was that easy buddy, Honda would have done it by now. As would Renault.

[Vasconia]

As much as I hate honda (because of the suffering in the past 3 years) I still think there's a potential.
I mean Redbull wanted to steal honda from McLaren back in 2015 before Ron vetoed the possibility.

Perhaps they're thinking, it has been 3 years of learning process surely they'll get it right soon.
After all they suffered none of the painful experience .

It will be a great LOL for McLaren if RB changes to Honda in 2019 or 2020 and the PU works, but you know? it could happen. The problem here is that RB hasn´t suffered 3 years of pathetic engines, TR could be the next victim and they would receive the result of years of hard work withouth damaging their brand. If it happens it would be a master move by RB and McLaren would react in this way: