2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

[ZakB]

@ZakB

I love how you say all they need to do it take engineers from Mercedes & Ferrari. As if they can just take the top people from the other engine manufacturers. Im sure theres a chance of taking some, but most are probably european and happily settled in Italy or the Uk and not in Japan. If it was that easy buddy, Honda would have done it by now. As would Renault.

Of course, that's why they shouldn't have run their operations from Japan. It causes so many problems, even with modern communications.

[Squid]

Most important of all a big boost in power/reliability. Sponsors and everything else will fall into place with that.

Minor upgrade, you underestimate chassis integration. Honda and the McLaren chassis has more symbiotic relationship than people imagine, not to mention, when the Honda engine improves by Suzuka/COTA/Mexico they won't have a reason to switch.

I hope McLaren does the smart thing and stick with Honda.

I've seen enough of the Honda chassis integeration over the last three years thank you. Torro Rosso can enjoy that now. Meanwhile McLaren can enjoy the same benefits that have helped power Redbull to its podiums and sole victory so far this year.

Yeah, that's not gonna happen buddy. Red Bull was Renault's works team until 2016. They have a much better contract than McLaren will ever get.

[Sayeman]

Actually diminishing returns isn't appropriate in this situation. There are other factors at work in F1 and these PU's are the most complex ever, so diminishing returns might not arise for another 10 years when there will be new engines anyway. In the V8 era there was imposed equalisation when Renault were allowed to catch up. Kers introduction also threw in a massive differentiator. V10 era Illmor tried to introduce beryllium with McLaren Mercedes which was banned immediately but could have been a great performance boost.

I'd argue diminishing returns can be quite an ambiguous term. What I understand it to mean, is that with every year moving forward, the expected increase in performance will decrease.

Example:

Year 1: 70% of the true potential of the given engine Formula
Year 2: 85% ""
Year 3: 92% ""
Year 4: 95% ""
Year 5: 97% ""
Year 6: 97.7% "

These are just hypothetical numbers to illustrate the point in an exaggerated way, mind you. The point being, once you reach a certain efficiency, the improvement and increase in performance become marginal. Engine A might be at 97.7%, Engine B at 96.3%, Engine C at 95.7%. At that point, the difference in chassis, aero-efficiency and other factors become more important.

This should technically be feasible with the current engine formula because it's not an "open engine formula". There are restrictions in place to ensure where the development takes place. For example: There's the cap on fuel flow and fuel capacity as we all know it. There's also a cap on the ERS component. This makes it an efficiency formula. For the best results, you want the best efficiency, lower weight, less friction/losses etc. How much energy that is inside the fuel is also a factor, especially with teams obviously exploring other means for more power for example, by adding additives to the oil.

Many of these venues will be blocked and addressed by the FIA at the latest next year. The oil limit is being reduced, most recently at Monza, but the methods of measuring how much oil is being used is still rudimentary (According to AMuS they use a oil dipstick). Apparently going into next year, this will be addressed. Also only 1 spec of oil will be allowed for the entire weekend, potentially closing potential loop holes to get more power for quick laps during qualifying.

Of course, there's no way to know how many of these venues Honda has been pursuing with their engine, but it's clear that the steps the FIA is taking will potentially further decrease the gap between engines. While I don't expect all engines to reach parity, I fully expect them to be close enough to each other that on most tracks, chassis and aero will be more important and only at tracks like Spa and Monza to continue to be an advantage to those with more efficient engines.

The fact that only 3 engines can be used next year will also mean that those fighting for championships will only have 3 specs to homolgate. Honda, if they are behind, can still bring more engines (and will) but of course will simply have to endure grid penalties, to further close that gap. This means that the teams at the top will be limited in their engine development throughout their season, unless they are happy to risk penalties as well.

I don't know why Fia doesn't freeze engine development? In the V8 era, engine development was frozen but those who were lagging were allowed to catch up. In motogo, new manufacturers are given unlimited testing and extra fuel until they get 3 podiums or a win. Surely, it would have attracted more manufacturers, without the possibility of getting hamstrung like Honda.

[RedNEO]

Minor upgrade, you underestimate chassis integration. Honda and the McLaren chassis has more symbiotic relationship than people imagine, not to mention, when the Honda engine improves by Suzuka/COTA/Mexico they won't have a reason to switch.

I hope McLaren does the smart thing and stick with Honda.

I've seen enough of the Honda chassis integeration over the last three years thank you. Torro Rosso can enjoy that now. Meanwhile McLaren can enjoy the same benefits that have helped power Redbull to its podiums and sole victory so far this year.

Yeah, that's not gonna happen buddy. Red Bull was Renault's works team until 2016. They have a much better contract than McLaren will ever get.

You mean the contract that doesn't allow Redbull to say anything bad or even say the word "Renault" due to what happened last year? That one?

[diffuser]

So after all this time no official announcement, I'm guessing the Renault deal fell through and it's status quo for next year.

Certainly makes you that although I would have thought an announcement of status quo would be forthcoming too. Maybe they are trying to work on Alonso now so a good news announcement can be made at same time as no change on engine.

I think Red Bull are keen on taking over as the works team in 2019 with TR as the mule for 2018 and maybe that's the issue? RB have all the cards.

Alonso already said that he was "ok" with Honda. That he just wanted to visit with them in January and see where they would be at that point.

I don't see why Honda would have an issue with being a works team for RBR.

[Andres125sx]

Well, I think it´s pretty clear Honda is a company with no qualms about assuming and even saying publicly what are their faults. That´s different to being lost. Ferrari would have NEVER said that publicly, but that does not mean only Honda made mistakes, only that they´re way way more sincere than european manufacturers.

BTW, I think people usually forget about testing ban and its huge relevance on development process. Mix that with a hugely complicated PU and you´ll realize how brave was Honda entering F1 with some disadvantage to their rivals.

But that´s what happens with brave people, when they loose their bet some people assume they´re stupid

I don´t call them stupid.

I know it was a reference to Mad comment

I sincerely think that if they change to Toro Rosso this would be good for them. Less pressure and expectatives so I think that things could workg smoothly.

Problem here is that demanding good results in third year of a new project when two first years development was restricted is similar to someone demanding good results in first or second year of a new project in past eras without development restrictions. Who would demand that? None, none sane at least.

I think Alonso is partially responsible for this, as he stated he´d make a decision about his future after the summer break, so McLaren probably used that date as a reference point to evaluate Honda potential too, because shareholders were becoming impatinent too

But I really think if they make the split for next season, it´s fairly plausible they split with Honda exactly when they will start to perform decently, and that would be too painful after these three seasons. Can you imagine STR-Honda beating McLaren-Reanult?


To me that would be almost predictable. Honda designed a poor PU in 2015, they were forced to keep that concept for 2016 as tokens didn´t allow for the neccessary changes. They do that drastic change in 2017 when tokens are removed, but suffer several unexpected problems (wich even Honda warned about) wich force them to make more drastic changes wich need at least 6 months, so they have to cope with that "faulty" PU most of 2017 season, and exactly before Honda introduces spec 4 wich is the PU that will solve those problems, McLaren is going to split?

To me that move would instantly put McLaren on the top 10 of the most stupid moves F1 teams have ever done, much higher than their switch to Honda. After two and a half painful seasons waiting another half to see if Honda has finally found the track is mandatory in my eyes. Problem is if they wait until the end of the season, then they can´t make a switch for 2018, but that´s a risk I really think they must assume because...

Can you imagine STR-Honda beating McLaren-Renault in 2018 or 2019 when it was McLaren who suffered Honda development curve?

[diffuser]

@ZakB

I love how you say all they need to do it take engineers from Mercedes & Ferrari. As if they can just take the top people from the other engine manufacturers. Im sure theres a chance of taking some, but most are probably european and happily settled in Italy or the Uk and not in Japan. If it was that easy buddy, Honda would have done it by now. As would Renault.

Of course, that's why they shouldn't have run their operations from Japan. It causes so many problems, even with modern communications.

There was discussion with Engineers about going to work for Honda in Japan. It turned out to be a positive and not a negative. The engineers said that going to Japan would increase the chances of them working for Honda.

Intelligent people tend to embrace change in culture and stuff like that. Makes life interesting.

[nanocustic]

So...is Mclaren better off with Honda or Renault?

[Andres125sx]

What about McLaren going with McLaren? Boullier and Brown already suggested that it is a possibility. Renault certainly isn't the perfect option, but it will give them a chance to fight for podium/wins.

Assuming McLaren can make a better chassis to RBR is certainly a very big assumption, MUCH bigger than assuming Honda will improve

Everybody in here acts like Honda is the only manufacturer that can make progress, but Renault, Ferrari and Mercedes aren't sitting still either.

Did you sometime hear or read about diminishing returns? Everbody in here acts like Honda can improve more than their rivals, because that´s the reality, as simple as that. Only Honda haters like yourself act like if that would be impossible or unreal

Actually diminishing returns isn't appropriate in this situation.

Phil did explain it perfectly and I fully agree with his interpretation

[Andres125sx]

I don't know why Fia doesn't freeze engine development? In the V8 era, engine development was frozen but those who were lagging were allowed to catch up. In motogo, new manufacturers are given unlimited testing and extra fuel until they get 3 podiums or a win. Surely, it would have attracted more manufacturers, without the possibility of getting hamstrung like Honda.

F1 and freeze should never be togheter in the same sentence, but I fully agree MotoGP approach is several orders of magnitude more clever and appropiate

[santos]

Can you imagine STR-Honda beating McLaren-Renault in 2018 or 2019 when it was McLaren who suffered Honda development curve?

In 2019, if Honda did a good job on 2018 with Toro Rosso, Red Bull will have Honda engines. And Mclaren will be just another customer for Renault.

[Mekki]

recent twitter post fro ALO (triple crown) as indicator of mclaren sticking with honda??


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[loner]

recent twitter post fro ALO (triple crown) as indicator of mclaren sticking with honda??


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or sticking with Honda wages wise than a customer Renault

[fellowhoodlums]

So after all this time no official announcement, I'm guessing the Renault deal fell through and it's status quo for next year.

Certainly makes you that although I would have thought an announcement of status quo would be forthcoming too. Maybe they are trying to work on Alonso now so a good news announcement can be made at same time as no change on engine.

I think Red Bull are keen on taking over as the works team in 2019 with TR as the mule for 2018 and maybe that's the issue? RB have all the cards.

Alonso already said that he was "ok" with Honda. That he just wanted to visit with them in January and see where they would be at that point.

I don't see why Honda would have an issue with being a works team for RBR.

It was McLaren i was meaning having the issue with RB as the works team.

[fellowhoodlums]

recent twitter post fro ALO (triple crown) as indicator of mclaren sticking with honda??


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Perhaps that's the sweetner?.Zak talked about return to Le Mans.

https://www.autosport.com/wec/news/1280 ... ans-return

McLaren sticks with Honda (reluctantly) and Alonso sticks with Honda (reluctantly) in McLaren. Alonso made happy by allowed to compete for triple crown?

Expected Tuesday announcement was for Renault deal, didn't happen so now McLaren putting together a set of "good news" stories to announce?