So, when do we see the Massa/Vettel swap?

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teecof1fan
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Re: So, when do we see the Massa/Vettel swap?

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I just spent the past 5 hours reading this thread :lol: Therefore, my comments aren't specific to any threads, but they are more an impression of everything discussed (everyone go back and read every post of every page and you'll be with me). In other words, what I'm about to say are umbrella comments over the past 11 pages of posts.


First, there was defense of Massa. Well, Massa is pretty much shite. If everyone is honest with themselves, they'll realize this instead of fighting it. Massa is the number two driver; as a few posts pointed out, Kimi can beat Felipe whenever he wants. Yeah, he hasn't beaten Massa every single time, but quit trying to say that Massa is better than Kimi. Massa's time with Ferrari was supposed to have cured his inadequacies, but obviously (see the first 2 races of 08) he hasn't fixed any of his problems.

Massa has won all his races from pole, and (as I don't like Lewis) Hamilton has only won races from pole as well. Kimi and Fernando are the only two championship-calibre drivers on the grid who know what it feels like to win from 2nd place or further back (think Kimi at Japan in 05).

The other issue is Vettel, and here is my thought: Vettel is way better than Massa. Massa is driving a Ferrari, he has only won from pole position, and in 08 he has spun on his own accord in the first two races. We could get into details about this, but I refuse to because the fact is that in 10 years, the record books will prove that Vettel was a completely and totally superior driver to Massa. (I'm 100% certain of this because sooner or later Vettel will get into a Ferrari or an equally competitive car, so we can let his career speak for itself...So if you want to bet me, please do!)

Another topic was about the newcomers; who will be the champ in the future?
Well, the future is full of Kubica, Rosberg, Hamilton, Kovalainen, AND (to a lesser extent, but they're still pretty young) Kimi and Alonso....

The other thing I have to comment on is the whole Kimi & Fernando driving for the same team thing (per this thread, the team is Ferrari and the year is 2009). The first thing I thought of was that Kimi and Fernando already had the chance to race head to head at McLaren in 2007...Imagine Kimi staying after 2006: Kimi v Fernando in equal equipment. But Kimi didn't want anything to do with that, and he moved to Ferrari. Therefore, I back up my claim that Kimi is undoubtedly #1 and Felipe is #2 at Ferrari, not only in skill but in principle as well.
Anyway, would I like to see Kimi v Fernando in the same car? you bet your ass! For christs sake I was hoping for it in 07! I think a battle between Kimi and Fernando in the same car would be a MUCH better story than Fernando v Lewis in the same car.

Anyway, I know I'm leaving out tons of things that have been discussed, but like I said, I have just commented on the bigger themes throughout 11 or 12 pages of posts, so don't nitpick me cause I'm leaving something out! :D

Only a few more days before Bahrain! Can't wait! :mrgreen:
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SMP
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Re: So, when do we see the Massa/Vettel swap?

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teecof1fan wrote:Imagine Kimi staying after 2006: Kimi v Fernando in equal equipment. But Kimi didn't want anything to do with that, and he moved to Ferrari.
If I remember reports from F1 Racing, Kimi's move to Ferrari was probably inked before Alonso's move to McLaren. Also, it's not fair to say he didn't want anything to do with it, considering that he signed for Ferrari knowing fully well his team mate could have been Schumacher.

JimmyK
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Re: So, when do we see the Massa/Vettel swap?

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I don't understand why Alonso would want to go to Ferrari, if he'd wanted a championship winning car and not minded a difficult teammate he could've made life easier for himself at McLaren.
Even the best of drivers will take a little while to adapt to their new teams (especially if it's a car that I don't think will suit their driving style), and I can't really believe Alonso would give up #1 status at Renault in favour of going to Ferrari and almost certainly being beaten initially by Raikkonen.

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teecof1fan
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Re: So, when do we see the Massa/Vettel swap?

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To SMP,

I'm not disagreeing, I just don't know the facts...But Alonso signed with McLaren waaay before he ever went there, and it took a long time for Schumacher to decide about his retirement, so I'm just guessing, but I think Kimi knew Fernando was coming to McLaren before he signed his deal with Ferrari.

And to JimmyK,

I agree with you. I think Alonso should have stayed at McLaren because at least he would be in the title hunt. But, of course, I completely understand why he left and am glad he did (for the sake of his personal life/not going crazy)

Lastly,

I re-read my post from last night and I apologize for sounding like an a-hole about any of this! #-o I was glad I didn't get any angry responses! :D
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SMP
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Re: So, when do we see the Massa/Vettel swap?

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teecof1fan wrote:I think Kimi knew Fernando was coming to McLaren before he signed his deal with Ferrari.
Even so, I think it takes far more spunk to decide to make the move to Ferrari and possibly take on Schumi. Something like fighting the lion in his own den. Anyway, I guess these are some of the things the world will never know about.....

Coming back to the initial topic (Massa/Vettel swap), I can imagine Ferrari signing a deal with Vettel similar to what they had with Massa. (like a long term development type deal). Ferrari lost Kimi to McLaren initially and they may not want a similar story with the next young star driving with Ferrari engines.

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megz
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Re: So, when do we see the Massa/Vettel swap?

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Alonso signed on to McLaren before Renault launched their 2006 car. Ferrari allegedly gave Kimi 5 Million Euro as a right to first turn down in the way of contract offers, whether this is true or not Im not sure but there was certainly rumours about it.

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teecof1fan
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Re: So, when do we see the Massa/Vettel swap?

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Thanks, megz, that is what I was looking for...Kimi knew Alonso was coming, so it was either take a chance on Schumacher retiring and move to Ferrari, (which is what happened) or fight Alonso in the same ( I would love the see that) albeit inferior car. Considering the situation, I don't blame Kimi for making the choice he did; he was overdue to become champion, and the 07 results only solidified that.

To SMP:

I disagree because I think Kimi was thinking long-term. At that time (2006), McLaren was producing an inferior car. Therefore, Kimi would much rather take a chance with Ferrari to beat Felipe (or maaayyyyybe Michael, though I'm almost certain Kimi knew he wouldn't be fighting Michael) in identical F2007's for the WDC than to take on Fernando in identical McLaren's. In other words, I think Kimi decided that racing for Ferrari in 2007 was his best opportunity to win the title. So, Kimi ended up where he wanted, and won the title....The looming question for me is: Assuming Michael retired, and Kimi stayed at McLaren (thus making it Kimi & Fernando at McLaren for 2007), who would have been the other 2007 Ferrari driver????

Hmmmmm......Let's hear it, everyone!!! :mrgreen:

Bahrain is here...I hope everyone's team does well! Cheers!
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modbaraban
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Re: So, when do we see the Massa/Vettel swap?

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So, when do we see the Massa/Villeneuve swap? :lol:

donskar
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Re: So, when do we see the Massa/Vettel swap?

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You guys keep Vettel. I'll take Kubica.
Enzo Ferrari was a great man. But he was not a good man. -- Phil Hill

Conceptual
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Re: So, when do we see the Massa/Vettel swap?

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donskar wrote:You guys keep Vettel. I'll take Kubica.
I would take that arrangement in a heartbeat. Kubica is very good, as is ALL F1 drivers, but I just sense a very intuitive right-brained understanding of the car in Vettel that I dont sense in Kubica.

It would be great to see a head to head with these drivers in equal, top level machinery.

Time will tell of course.

Chris

donskar
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Re: So, when do we see the Massa/Vettel swap?

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Conceptual, I should have put a smiley face after my comment.

Bottom line is that ALL F1 drivers are VERY good drivers.

It boggles my mind that several participants in this thread have trashed Massa, who has occasionally been faster than Kimi, such as in qualifying this weekend. Kimi is a better driver than Massa, and Vettel may prove to be as well, but Massa is certainly in the top 25% of F1 drivers, a very elite group! I'd be VERY happy to be within a few seconds of Massa -- and would probably be very lucky to just be able to keep an F1 car on the road!

In the 1970's I considered myself above average behind the wheel of a fast car, and had a few trophies to prove it. Then a professional sedan racer who worked part-time as a salesman at a Datsun dealership took me for a ride in a stock 510 (aka Bluebird?). He seemed to be able to suspend the laws of physics. Since that experience I have always had GREAT respect for men and women who make their living in a race car.
Enzo Ferrari was a great man. But he was not a good man. -- Phil Hill

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jaho101
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Joined: 16 Oct 2006, 07:02

Re: So, when do we see the Massa/Vettel swap?

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Conceptual wrote:
donskar wrote:You guys keep Vettel. I'll take Kubica.
I would take that arrangement in a heartbeat. Kubica is very good, as is ALL F1 drivers, but I just sense a very intuitive right-brained understanding of the car in Vettel that I dont sense in Kubica.

It would be great to see a head to head with these drivers in equal, top level machinery.

Time will tell of course.

Chris
I don't think so, I mean Kubica was quick in an F1 car the second he got in it. That's why Theissen hired him after his Renault test.

Conceptual
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Re: So, when do we see the Massa/Vettel swap?

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jaho101 wrote:
Conceptual wrote:
donskar wrote:You guys keep Vettel. I'll take Kubica.
I would take that arrangement in a heartbeat. Kubica is very good, as is ALL F1 drivers, but I just sense a very intuitive right-brained understanding of the car in Vettel that I dont sense in Kubica.

It would be great to see a head to head with these drivers in equal, top level machinery.

Time will tell of course.

Chris
I don't think so, I mean Kubica was quick in an F1 car the second he got in it. That's why Theissen hired him after his Renault test.
And Theissen ALSO had a problem letting Vettel go, having seen what the 19 year old could squeeze out of the F1-07.

Isn't Vettel due back to BMW sometime in the future as per the contract arrangement?

Maybe we will see the Kubica/Vettel head-to-head in the F1-10?

Chris

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f1italia
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Re: So, when do we see the Massa/Vettel swap?

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Another DNF for Vettel. At least he has been consistent.

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f1italia
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Re: So, when do we see the Massa/Vettel swap?

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Massa is back in racing form. He loves Bahrain.