Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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Oehrly
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Joined: 08 Jan 2018, 17:53

Re: Honda Power Unit

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AJI wrote:
08 Jan 2018, 12:56
The real question is: is the gain significant, or is it a dead end and just a red herring?
Why would Honda publish that info?
Just an idea, maybe they are trying to get that route of energy recovery banned?
Pulsing the the MGU-H at 20-40Hz will create vibrations. Maybe that has something to do with all these MGU-H failures they had. Developement might be expensive and time intensive.
If they publish this information they are probably sure the other manufacturers know about it and also do it.
Let's just assume the others are better at it right now. Although storing the energy from the MGU-K in that way is not against the regulations, it's probably against the intention that is behind the regulations.
If Honda can get the FIA to ban this practice they just got a step closer to the other manufacturers in terms of power and reliability. And it would cost them nothing, compared to expensive developement. And if the others really also do it Honda can't loose anything by publishing that information.
So it might just be a clever and inexpensive try at closing the gap to the other manufacturers.

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dren
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Joined: 03 Mar 2010, 14:14

Re: Honda Power Unit

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Working closely with the fuel provider doesn't hurt, either.
Honda!

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godlameroso
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Joined: 16 Jan 2010, 21:27
Location: Miami FL

Re: Honda Power Unit

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dren wrote:
08 Jan 2018, 18:13
Working closely with the fuel provider doesn't hurt, either.
It gave Mercedes 50hp alone, the chemistry of combustion is just as important as the cubic meters of airflow, particularly for getting the best ignition timing.

There are endothermic reactions preceding the exothermic one, and understanding the various molecular species that result from the reaction chains and their effect on the combustion process is key to this.

Here's a good lecture on fuel chemistry/kinetics.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTKqL-BFkoU skip to 35 minutes if you don't like politics.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbazF3l2GEg

I wonder if the secret to fuel is good cow poop.
Last edited by godlameroso on 08 Jan 2018, 20:16, edited 1 time in total.
Saishū kōnā

roon
roon
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Joined: 17 Dec 2016, 19:04

Re: Honda Power Unit

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dren wrote:
08 Jan 2018, 13:24
None of this is road relevant.

In a road car, you wouldn't pulse an MG with another MG before sending energy to an ES; you'd send it straight to the ES.
This is what I like about having a split MGU-H--no switching. Earlier I was suggesting to have one end of the -H as the generator stator, the other as the motor stator, sharing a common rotor. The generator side could drag against the motor-side efforts any time the K sends excess power to the M-side of the H. Continuous generating while continuously motoring.

Nonserviam85 wrote:
07 Jan 2018, 23:54
Honda Engineers also share the view tha the free development of the MGU-H was intentionally allowed by FIA to assist development and mass production for commercial vehicles!
Yeah, the goal was electrified turbocompounding. Motors replacing mechanical connections. Hence the unlimited energy flow between the H & K, to equivocate shafts and gears.

Nonserviam85
Nonserviam85
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Joined: 17 May 2013, 11:21

Re: Honda Power Unit

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roon wrote:
08 Jan 2018, 20:00
dren wrote:
08 Jan 2018, 13:24
None of this is road relevant.

In a road car, you wouldn't pulse an MG with another MG before sending energy to an ES; you'd send it straight to the ES.
This is what I like about having a split MGU-H--no switching. Earlier I was suggesting to have one end of the -H as the generator stator, the other as the motor stator, sharing a common rotor. The generator side could drag against the motor-side efforts any time the K sends excess power to the M-side of the H. Continuous generating while continuously motoring.

Nonserviam85 wrote:
07 Jan 2018, 23:54
Honda Engineers also share the view tha the free development of the MGU-H was intentionally allowed by FIA to assist development and mass production for commercial vehicles!
Yeah, the goal was electrified turbocompounding. Motors replacing mechanical connections. Hence the unlimited energy flow between the H & K, to equivocate shafts and gears.
Double Stator Permanent Magnet Motors? :?: Hmmm a bit too over the top...

AJI
AJI
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Joined: 22 Dec 2015, 09:08

Re: Honda Power Unit

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Nonserviam85 wrote:
08 Jan 2018, 22:28
Double Stator Permanent Magnet Motors? :?: Hmmm a bit too over the top...
The concept is interesting, but every picture I've seen of the wiring would suggest that they aren't doing that..?

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Zynerji
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Joined: 27 Jan 2016, 16:14

Re: Honda Power Unit

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AJI wrote:
08 Jan 2018, 22:50
Nonserviam85 wrote:
08 Jan 2018, 22:28
Double Stator Permanent Magnet Motors? :?: Hmmm a bit too over the top...
The concept is interesting, but every picture I've seen of the wiring would suggest that they aren't doing that..?
Unless its an internal resonator, like a magnetron.

Hino
Hino
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Joined: 03 May 2017, 03:22
Location: Los Angeles

Re: Honda Power Unit

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I want to thank everyone for the +1's. There are some rough translations within the article so if you want to some more clarity on a certain topic just let me know and I'll try to get a better translation. I also wanted to translate a similar article from the same magazine, but for the 2016 RA616H power unit that is on Amazon Japan. Snorked originally posted the 2017 article, I don't know if you purchased it in digital or found a work around. The Motor Fan Motorsport Technology Details of 2016 (click on the front page avatar for the expanded view) is the source of the article I'm referencing to, if its something of interest I'll see what I can do.

shady
shady
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Joined: 07 Feb 2014, 06:31

Re: Honda Power Unit

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@Hino, that it is, would love to see the development between the two years (and two philosophies)

ncassi22
ncassi22
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Joined: 27 Apr 2013, 02:26

Re: Honda Power Unit

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The article mentions the Pneumatic valve system. It dindn't make clear whether the system was reduced in components/simplified to save weight or dumped for a springvalve system. Also it says something about injectors on the exhaust side??? Translation errors or something else?

hurril
hurril
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Joined: 07 Oct 2014, 13:02

Re: Honda Power Unit

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ncassi22 wrote:
12 Jan 2018, 08:22
The article mentions the Pneumatic valve system. It dindn't make clear whether the system was reduced in components/simplified to save weight or dumped for a springvalve system. Also it says something about injectors on the exhaust side??? Translation errors or something else?
It does mention using a spring-valve system instead.

Injectors on the exhaust side is nothing strange. The injector merely sits on the cylinderbank together with the exhaust valves instead of with the intake valves.

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factory_p
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Joined: 28 Jul 2016, 10:04

Re: Honda Power Unit

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hurril wrote:
12 Jan 2018, 09:15
ncassi22 wrote:
12 Jan 2018, 08:22
Also it says something about injectors on the exhaust side??? Translation errors or something else?
Injectors on the exhaust side is nothing strange. The injector merely sits on the cylinderbank together with the exhaust valves instead of with the intake valves.
I would think everyone is running with the injectors on the exhaust side now.

At least it would make sense : in a lean combustion, mixture is a top priority and putting your injector on the exhaust side gives you much more freedom than anywhere else in the chamber: you are not disturbed by the intake valves opening during your injection phase, so you can design much better spray patterns.

bill shoe
bill shoe
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Location: Dallas, Texas, USA

Re: Honda Power Unit

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ncassi22 wrote:
12 Jan 2018, 08:22
The article mentions the Pneumatic valve system. It dindn't make clear whether the system was reduced in components/simplified to save weight or dumped for a springvalve system. Also it says something about injectors on the exhaust side??? Translation errors or something else?
I read it to mean Honda went from original pneumatic valve return to conventional coil springs to eliminate the pneumatic system weight. It says each coil spring is actually a triple-spring combo, which typically prevents any one spring resonance from dominating and provides light friction damping between springs. Current materials and dynamic modeling make conventional springs possible at revs where pneumatic used to be needed.

Would be interesting to know if other engines (Merc., Ferrari, Renault) use coil springs instead of pneumatic, and would be interesting to know if Honda sticks with coil-spring for the higher revs in 2021.

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MrPotatoHead
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Joined: 20 Apr 2017, 19:03
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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bill shoe wrote:
12 Jan 2018, 16:23
ncassi22 wrote:
12 Jan 2018, 08:22
The article mentions the Pneumatic valve system. It dindn't make clear whether the system was reduced in components/simplified to save weight or dumped for a springvalve system. Also it says something about injectors on the exhaust side??? Translation errors or something else?
I read it to mean Honda went from original pneumatic valve return to conventional coil springs to eliminate the pneumatic system weight. It says each coil spring is actually a triple-spring combo, which typically prevents any one spring resonance from dominating and provides light friction damping between springs. Current materials and dynamic modeling make conventional springs possible at revs where pneumatic used to be needed.

Would be interesting to know if other engines (Merc., Ferrari, Renault) use coil springs instead of pneumatic, and would be interesting to know if Honda sticks with coil-spring for the higher revs in 2021.
Going back to coil springs over Pneumatic is a very odd thing to do and I find it very very srprising. Even at "only" 13,000 rpm the valvetrain dynamics are very hard to control when using aggressive ramps. Jerk is not your friend.
Not to mention the difference in weight between the valve springs themselves and the entire Pneumatic system is not as great as one might think.

Nonserviam85
Nonserviam85
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Joined: 17 May 2013, 11:21

Re: Honda Power Unit

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hurril wrote:
12 Jan 2018, 09:15
ncassi22 wrote:
12 Jan 2018, 08:22
The article mentions the Pneumatic valve system. It dindn't make clear whether the system was reduced in components/simplified to save weight or dumped for a springvalve system. Also it says something about injectors on the exhaust side??? Translation errors or something else?
It does mention using a spring-valve system instead.
:shock: :shock: