Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[Oehrly]

The real question is: is the gain significant, or is it a dead end and just a red herring?
Why would Honda publish that info?

Just an idea, maybe they are trying to get that route of energy recovery banned?
Pulsing the the MGU-H at 20-40Hz will create vibrations. Maybe that has something to do with all these MGU-H failures they had. Developement might be expensive and time intensive.
If they publish this information they are probably sure the other manufacturers know about it and also do it.
Let's just assume the others are better at it right now. Although storing the energy from the MGU-K in that way is not against the regulations, it's probably against the intention that is behind the regulations.
If Honda can get the FIA to ban this practice they just got a step closer to the other manufacturers in terms of power and reliability. And it would cost them nothing, compared to expensive developement. And if the others really also do it Honda can't loose anything by publishing that information.
So it might just be a clever and inexpensive try at closing the gap to the other manufacturers.

[dren]

Working closely with the fuel provider doesn't hurt, either.

[godlameroso]

Working closely with the fuel provider doesn't hurt, either.

It gave Mercedes 50hp alone, the chemistry of combustion is just as important as the cubic meters of airflow, particularly for getting the best ignition timing.

There are endothermic reactions preceding the exothermic one, and understanding the various molecular species that result from the reaction chains and their effect on the combustion process is key to this.

Here's a good lecture on fuel chemistry/kinetics.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTKqL-BFkoU skip to 35 minutes if you don't like politics.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbazF3l2GEg

I wonder if the secret to fuel is good cow poop.

[roon]

None of this is road relevant.

In a road car, you wouldn't pulse an MG with another MG before sending energy to an ES; you'd send it straight to the ES.

This is what I like about having a split MGU-H--no switching. Earlier I was suggesting to have one end of the -H as the generator stator, the other as the motor stator, sharing a common rotor. The generator side could drag against the motor-side efforts any time the K sends excess power to the M-side of the H. Continuous generating while continuously motoring.

Honda Engineers also share the view tha the free development of the MGU-H was intentionally allowed by FIA to assist development and mass production for commercial vehicles!

Yeah, the goal was electrified turbocompounding. Motors replacing mechanical connections. Hence the unlimited energy flow between the H & K, to equivocate shafts and gears.

[Nonserviam85]

None of this is road relevant.

In a road car, you wouldn't pulse an MG with another MG before sending energy to an ES; you'd send it straight to the ES.

This is what I like about having a split MGU-H--no switching. Earlier I was suggesting to have one end of the -H as the generator stator, the other as the motor stator, sharing a common rotor. The generator side could drag against the motor-side efforts any time the K sends excess power to the M-side of the H. Continuous generating while continuously motoring.

Honda Engineers also share the view tha the free development of the MGU-H was intentionally allowed by FIA to assist development and mass production for commercial vehicles!

Yeah, the goal was electrified turbocompounding. Motors replacing mechanical connections. Hence the unlimited energy flow between the H & K, to equivocate shafts and gears.

Double Stator Permanent Magnet Motors? Hmmm a bit too over the top...

[AJI]

Double Stator Permanent Magnet Motors? Hmmm a bit too over the top...

The concept is interesting, but every picture I've seen of the wiring would suggest that they aren't doing that..?

[Zynerji]

Double Stator Permanent Magnet Motors? Hmmm a bit too over the top...

The concept is interesting, but every picture I've seen of the wiring would suggest that they aren't doing that..?

Unless its an internal resonator, like a magnetron.

[Hino]

I want to thank everyone for the +1's. There are some rough translations within the article so if you want to some more clarity on a certain topic just let me know and I'll try to get a better translation. I also wanted to translate a similar article from the same magazine, but for the 2016 RA616H power unit that is on Amazon Japan. Snorked originally posted the 2017 article, I don't know if you purchased it in digital or found a work around. The Motor Fan Motorsport Technology Details of 2016 (click on the front page avatar for the expanded view) is the source of the article I'm referencing to, if its something of interest I'll see what I can do.

[shady]

@Hino, that it is, would love to see the development between the two years (and two philosophies)

[ncassi22]

The article mentions the Pneumatic valve system. It dindn't make clear whether the system was reduced in components/simplified to save weight or dumped for a springvalve system. Also it says something about injectors on the exhaust side??? Translation errors or something else?

[hurril]

The article mentions the Pneumatic valve system. It dindn't make clear whether the system was reduced in components/simplified to save weight or dumped for a springvalve system. Also it says something about injectors on the exhaust side??? Translation errors or something else?

It does mention using a spring-valve system instead.

Injectors on the exhaust side is nothing strange. The injector merely sits on the cylinderbank together with the exhaust valves instead of with the intake valves.

[factory_p]

Also it says something about injectors on the exhaust side??? Translation errors or something else?

Injectors on the exhaust side is nothing strange. The injector merely sits on the cylinderbank together with the exhaust valves instead of with the intake valves.

I would think everyone is running with the injectors on the exhaust side now.

At least it would make sense : in a lean combustion, mixture is a top priority and putting your injector on the exhaust side gives you much more freedom than anywhere else in the chamber: you are not disturbed by the intake valves opening during your injection phase, so you can design much better spray patterns.

[bill shoe]

The article mentions the Pneumatic valve system. It dindn't make clear whether the system was reduced in components/simplified to save weight or dumped for a springvalve system. Also it says something about injectors on the exhaust side??? Translation errors or something else?

I read it to mean Honda went from original pneumatic valve return to conventional coil springs to eliminate the pneumatic system weight. It says each coil spring is actually a triple-spring combo, which typically prevents any one spring resonance from dominating and provides light friction damping between springs. Current materials and dynamic modeling make conventional springs possible at revs where pneumatic used to be needed.

Would be interesting to know if other engines (Merc., Ferrari, Renault) use coil springs instead of pneumatic, and would be interesting to know if Honda sticks with coil-spring for the higher revs in 2021.

[MrPotatoHead]

The article mentions the Pneumatic valve system. It dindn't make clear whether the system was reduced in components/simplified to save weight or dumped for a springvalve system. Also it says something about injectors on the exhaust side??? Translation errors or something else?

I read it to mean Honda went from original pneumatic valve return to conventional coil springs to eliminate the pneumatic system weight. It says each coil spring is actually a triple-spring combo, which typically prevents any one spring resonance from dominating and provides light friction damping between springs. Current materials and dynamic modeling make conventional springs possible at revs where pneumatic used to be needed.

Would be interesting to know if other engines (Merc., Ferrari, Renault) use coil springs instead of pneumatic, and would be interesting to know if Honda sticks with coil-spring for the higher revs in 2021.

Going back to coil springs over Pneumatic is a very odd thing to do and I find it very very srprising. Even at "only" 13,000 rpm the valvetrain dynamics are very hard to control when using aggressive ramps. Jerk is not your friend.
Not to mention the difference in weight between the valve springs themselves and the entire Pneumatic system is not as great as one might think.

[Nonserviam85]

The article mentions the Pneumatic valve system. It dindn't make clear whether the system was reduced in components/simplified to save weight or dumped for a springvalve system. Also it says something about injectors on the exhaust side??? Translation errors or something else?

It does mention using a spring-valve system instead.