2018 Scuderia Toro Rosso F1 Team - Honda

[etusch]

Looking at what Ferrari could do for HAAS... there is no way they are not thinking of similar for RBR and TR. Some have talked about why didn't RBR just gave TR their chassis from last year, I don't think that would have worked because TR would still have to integrate the PU. However, going forward, that has to come across their mind?

Yes @techman doing this but he miss two things one is what you said. But for me, main reason that it will not happen because , Toro Rosso is an experimental team for Redbull. Toro Rosso engineers must work themselfs and build the car so they have experience and brighter ones move to redbull just like drivers

[Marti_EF3]

With only improving a bit tire wear it will be a lot better. And by mid season I expect a better package and integration PU-chassis, bringing to life the ideas they had when started working together. And to test solutions for 2019 car. The rear end is at 20% of its potential, lets wait and see what Key and their department can bring to the track

P.D: And what Honda can bring with the 2nd spec PU with their combustion process more mature... If they improve only harvesting and fuel efficency, it will be a lot better

[loner]

both sides seems to target half season they must have a plan , Key seems to be top bloke i assume he has a schedule
to deliver around half the season...

[Marti_EF3]

Here we can see, STR was faster than Williams and Sauber, and near Force India average lap times. And that with the extra stops and puncture Hartley had... So not bad at all

[loner]

thnx for the pics
yeah as things stand now and as the car is so basic with no updates
STR is faster than Sauber and Williams and slightly behind FI and Mclaren , Renault and Haas are alot faster

[Talisman]

Looking at what Ferrari could do for HAAS... there is no way they are not thinking of similar for RBR and TR. Some have talked about why didn't RBR just gave TR their chassis from last year, I don't think that would have worked because TR would still have to integrate the PU. However, going forward, that has to come across their mind?

I don't think Red Bull want TR to be entirely dependent on the primary team. Once STR's primary usefulness expired which was to give Red Bull two votes rather than one, neatly sidestepped by MM IIRC by giving only one vote to one team from each country, the Austrians seem to have been in two minds about keeping them. Certainly I think if someone came along with enough money STR would be sold pretty quickly. There is no intention to make STR significantly more competitive where they might end up taking points off the primary team and it clearly serves a useful function as a selection and training ground for young RB drivers. One could even argue that STR doesn't cost money when you consider that its graduates often move onto the primary team on tiny salaries compared to the guys they are up against like Hamilton and Vettel, saving them a lot of money. This year it is serving another function, to act as a test bed and evaluation platform for Honda.

Ultimately if STR is to be sold it needs to be capable of designing and building its own cars, removing this ability will have serious consequences in the long term. Also Red Bull has no need for the STR to become competitive to assess the Honda. Only fans and those outside the paddock equate STR's performance with that of Honda. Red Bull will have access to the Honda PU's performance to compare to Renault, if not directly from Japan then from STR itself.

[loner]

Looking at what Ferrari could do for HAAS... there is no way they are not thinking of similar for RBR and TR. Some have talked about why didn't RBR just gave TR their chassis from last year, I don't think that would have worked because TR would still have to integrate the PU. However, going forward, that has to come across their mind?

I don't think Red Bull want TR to be entirely dependent on the primary team. Once STR's primary usefulness expired which was to give Red Bull two votes rather than one, neatly sidestepped by MM IIRC by giving only one vote to one team from each country, the Austrians seem to have been in two minds about keeping them. Certainly I think if someone came along with enough money STR would be sold pretty quickly. There is no intention to make STR significantly more competitive where they might end up taking points off the primary team and it clearly serves a useful function as a selection and training ground for young RB drivers. One could even argue that STR doesn't cost money when you consider that its graduates often move onto the primary team on tiny salaries compared to the guys they are up against like Hamilton and Vettel, saving them a lot of money. This year it is serving another function, to act as a test bed and evaluation platform for Honda.

Ultimately if STR is to be sold it needs to be capable of designing and building its own cars, removing this ability will have serious consequences in the long term. Also Red Bull has no need for the STR to become competitive to assess the Honda. Only fans and those outside the paddock equate STR's performance with that of Honda. Red Bull will have access to the Honda PU's performance to compare to Renault, if not directly from Japan then from STR itself.

well Wazari was dreaming about WCC with Williams in 2019.. and that was more than 2 years ago so Honda knew it when they will challenge for the title.
fortunately for him he will get the best chassis instead.

[gshevlin]

thnx for the pics
yeah as things stand now and as the car is so basic with no updates

All of the images I have seen of the car when compared with other cars show me that this is a very aerodynamically vanilla car with little in the way of additional aero-channeling devices around the bodywork. I also remember seeing an image (it might have been on this forum) showing that the Toro Rosso diffuser is currently smaller than rival teams' diffusers, partly because of the wider "coke bottle" shape of the rear end.
Ideally, TR will produce a B-spec car in mid-season to update the aero and close down the coke bottle as they understand the cooling of the engine a lot better.
Final thought: Toro Rosso is doing what McLaren would not do in the first year of their partnership with Honda - create a very conservative car with margins on packaging and cooling so that the powerplant supplier can get everything sorted and optimized. Of course, one can make a good argument that Honda really should have the powerplant properly sorted by year 4...

[Talisman]

Looking at what Ferrari could do for HAAS... there is no way they are not thinking of similar for RBR and TR. Some have talked about why didn't RBR just gave TR their chassis from last year, I don't think that would have worked because TR would still have to integrate the PU. However, going forward, that has to come across their mind?

I don't think Red Bull want TR to be entirely dependent on the primary team. Once STR's primary usefulness expired which was to give Red Bull two votes rather than one, neatly sidestepped by MM IIRC by giving only one vote to one team from each country, the Austrians seem to have been in two minds about keeping them. Certainly I think if someone came along with enough money STR would be sold pretty quickly. There is no intention to make STR significantly more competitive where they might end up taking points off the primary team and it clearly serves a useful function as a selection and training ground for young RB drivers. One could even argue that STR doesn't cost money when you consider that its graduates often move onto the primary team on tiny salaries compared to the guys they are up against like Hamilton and Vettel, saving them a lot of money. This year it is serving another function, to act as a test bed and evaluation platform for Honda.

Ultimately if STR is to be sold it needs to be capable of designing and building its own cars, removing this ability will have serious consequences in the long term. Also Red Bull has no need for the STR to become competitive to assess the Honda. Only fans and those outside the paddock equate STR's performance with that of Honda. Red Bull will have access to the Honda PU's performance to compare to Renault, if not directly from Japan then from STR itself.

well Wazari was dreaming about WCC with Williams in 2019.. and that was more than 2 years ago so Honda knew it when they will challenge for the title.
fortunately for him he will get the best chassis instead.

Unless Honda massively increase their budget they won’t be anywhere near Mercedes or Ferrari in 2019. Still, an excellent Red Bull with a Honda engine on a par with Renault could be in with a chance of winning the title.

[Thunder18]

[ Of course, one can make a good argument that Honda really should have the powerplant properly sorted by year 4...

yes and no, initially Honda thought their compact engine was the way forward but that was changed and this is currently year 2 with the new layout. It should progress from here, even if they're last place due to a presumed basic chassis/aero package, but last year Sainz had good finishes with TR, so we can expect once Har and Gas get a foothold, they will come good too.

I do respect but I also do take Wazari's post with an air of trepidation, there have been many promises before and of course the team needs to remain positive, but the first race ended with a PU issue and that's a troubling sign!!

[Thunder18]

I don't think Red Bull want TR to be entirely dependent on the primary team. Once STR's primary usefulness expired which was to give Red Bull two votes rather than one, neatly sidestepped by MM IIRC by giving only one vote to one team from each country, the Austrians seem to have been in two minds about keeping them. Certainly I think if someone came along with enough money STR would be sold pretty quickly. There is no intention to make STR significantly more competitive where they might end up taking points off the primary team and it clearly serves a useful function as a selection and training ground for young RB drivers. One could even argue that STR doesn't cost money when you consider that its graduates often move onto the primary team on tiny salaries compared to the guys they are up against like Hamilton and Vettel, saving them a lot of money. This year it is serving another function, to act as a test bed and evaluation platform for Honda.

Ultimately if STR is to be sold it needs to be capable of designing and building its own cars, removing this ability will have serious consequences in the long term. Also Red Bull has no need for the STR to become competitive to assess the Honda. Only fans and those outside the paddock equate STR's performance with that of Honda. Red Bull will have access to the Honda PU's performance to compare to Renault, if not directly from Japan then from STR itself.

well Wazari was dreaming about WCC with Williams in 2019.. and that was more than 2 years ago so Honda knew it when they will challenge for the title.
fortunately for him he will get the best chassis instead.

Unless Honda massively increase their budget they won’t be anywhere near Mercedes or Ferrari in 2019. Still, an excellent Red Bull with a Honda engine on a par with Renault could be in with a chance of winning the title.

If Williams are struggling with finding a new sponsor then free engines from Honda might be a more significant input so they can switch resources to chassis development

[Talisman]

It would be good for Williams sure, But it would take years for them to become competitive and cost Honda a lot of money they clearly do not want to spend.

It’s not in the same ballpark as supplying RBR next season.

[Macklaren]

A question to the Honda/ STR fans on here: what % of the lack of pace/reliability we saw from the STRs in Aus is down to the chassis vs the engine, in your opinion?. I know we can never know for sure and it’s not scientific, but would love to know your opinion

[etusch]

It may give us an example to think where would be Mclaren if they still have this Honda PU? 10th? 12th? Or back of the grid?

[Thunder18]

Rookie drivers, new track for them and the big stage, I don't see these drivers in the same league as Verstappen/Sainz. On a traditional track they will be better. Chassis 20% PU 80%, but the driver can always make a difference. We'll leave reliability out of it because that is 99.9 times PU related.