2018 Scuderia Toro Rosso F1 Team - Honda

[Ground Effect]

Look at the cars he's had a hand in from Sauber and then STR with the budgets he's had. Those hype themselves.

The reason he isn't at Red Bull yet is Newey, there is no room and they want him running TD's rather than just working in them and this is the best experience.

Wow!

Edited because I think I get it now, it's because we said pretty much the same thing at the same time,right?

Exactly! What comes to mind is the 2017 Ferrari and 2018 Haas... Almost identical, but independently worked on..

[McHonda]

Wow!

Edited because I think I get it now, it's because we said pretty much the same thing at the same time,right?

Exactly! What comes to mind is the 2017 Ferrari and 2018 Haas... Almost identical, but independently worked on..

[muramasa]

They are a huge company with massive resources but they are using f1 as a test bed

Can you elaborate and explain what "using f1 as a test bed" exactly and specifically is?

Honda is doing F1 to do and win F1 by themselves, to let none other than Honda engineers do F1. Completely same as any other makers. Ferrari is doing F1 in order to do F1 by Ferrari and let Ferrari engineers do F1. Not only that, doing F1 has huge implication and incentive for them in attracting talents from all over Italy etc and maintaining and polishing its brand. So they have to do F1 by themselves and in Italy. Renault is the same, Honda is the same. Or is that surprise to you? Mercedes is exception because they are effectively British.

Almost all current Honda staffs in both garage and factory used to work on F1 previously in 00s for long sustained period, not like apprentice as trial for short period only to be moved to different sections after one or few years. Cyril Abiteboul has shorter F1 career than Hasegawa and Tanabe and many of Honda's current garage staffs. Speaking of Abiteboul, he was recently boasting that Renault is bringing its young talent to F1 aggressively and their F1 operation is young and fresh. Also Renault is conducting engineering academy in F1. Go figure. Of course Honda is doing the same, letting talented youngsters work on trivial stuffs is total waste of time and talent, it's best to give him/her appropriate assignment from get-go (the likes of Newey, Lowe and Key used to be freshman as everyone has their own first year but they were never assigned to do choirs like paper work, right?). Otherwise their F1 operation will be full of old people nearing retirement. Only in this way organizations can maintain competitiveness and sustainability. Are Renault and Ferrari full of old staff? No. Honda is not doing anything special. Soichiro Honda saw F1 and got impressed with the competitive condition where everything is done so fast and harsh, an environment only motorsports esp F1 offer. "All those European car makers are and have been doing this F1 and that's why they can build such good commercial cars, so we've got to do it too". Understand? That's the context and meaning. So they are merely copying what Westerns do. Actually it's funny that even quite a few Japanese say this (Honda do F1 as training blah blah). What's common is that they are not thinking or actually trying to learn anything, just repeating what they heard somewhere. Thing is that Soichiro Honda got hyper excited about F1's aforementioned fast and harsh competition environment and talked and wrote a lot about it. Then it's taken out of context and abused. Something like that tends to be picked up alot and repeated like mantra (same as Ferrari's "aero is for those who cannot build engine", "six tenths" for Alonso, etc, all makers all drivers all countries have such). So this "Honda use F1 as staff training or test bed" cliche is false, nothing but a myth. You just dont know it, merely echoing what those media and others are saying without perspective. Your post is a template of those "Honda criticisms". The framework of "Honda use F1 as training ground / refuse outsiders (specifically Western) / etc -> they need to poach (Western) engineers from rival makers" is the same, narrative/expansion based on the denominator is uniform, there is no originality, everything is just downgraded carbon copy of stereotype, prejudice and categorization.

The problem of Honda has always been that their F1 operation had been intermittent. So guys like Hasegawa, Tanabe, Nakamura (chief engineer), Nakano (chief mechanic since 2015, or effectively 2013) etc who had all been involved since around 2000 to the end of 2008 (Hasegawa used to work for Honda indy engine in late 90s with Arai before F1, Nakamura has been involved with F1 since Mugen era, Tanabe was Berger engineer in early 90s before 00s), as well as all the other F1 engineers, had to be relocated to different sections within the company after 2008 (and 1992 as well in previous case).

and it is reflected in their record since their return.

So, no, it's just lazy correlation, just easy and convenient to look at it that way.

There is only so many times you can give excuses.

No one is.

Fourth year since their return

Or just short of full 5 years since they ever started working on the development plus starting up everything (operation and facilities) in May 2013. Others have been doing it since 2010 or even before, so more than 8 years now.

and the pattern of failures is the same. MGU-H bearing issues caused by mainly heat and oil seepage have been plaguing them since time immemorial but they have failed to get on top of those despite a 100 counter measures, the words they love to use .

No, current persisting MGU-H issue is new one from 2017. They did not have this particular MGU-H issue in 2015 and 2016 (of course it broke some times but not as often and the cause is totally different so just isolated cases).
And it is not caused by heat. Heat is a consequence. Also it is not oil seepage. It's oil infiltration. Oil mist enters compressor and then the oil goes into MGU-H, invades in its bearing, gets burned by rotational friction to cause damage. That's attributed to unconventional oil tank that's due to compressor placed at the front of ICE, as well as elongated shaft due to turbo moved outside V. That's last year's, this year's could well be the same persisting issue, could well be different.
"100 counter measures"?, so? They always explained such and such is what happened and such and such seem to be the cause and they applied patches that's possible for the moment. I have no idea what you are unhappy with about it. What and how should they say then, or more like you got the what and how wrong it seems?

Honda need to divert more resources and try and poach engineers from rivals to fast track their learning because without 100 percent commitment in terms of resources and personnel they will struggle.

Well at least Honda hired a Merc engineer from 2013 (introduced at Honda official site), and would you think he's the only one? And half of Honda garage staff are Brits or Europeans (introduced at Honda twitter and explained in documentary and books), and you'd think that's it? Putting "staff wanted for F1" in both Japan and UK continuously, and would you think they are not using those behind-the-door services and channels for high professionals (both in Japan and UK/etc)? Did you ever know these in the first place?

Besides, so, exactly who of those "engineers of rivals" in UK or France or Italy want to work at Sakura Japan or MK in UK? Perhaps the type of engineers Honda would need are satisfied with working at Brixworth or Viry (or wherever Renault's engine division is located) or Maranello (or wherever Ferrari's engine division is located) so not want to go to and work at Sakura (and MK, but full blown R&D is done at Sakura) even for double salary. It's annoying that some people regard human resource as if it's a tradeable object. They are human who have family, house etc. When, for example, even most of Enstone staffs are fixed to Enstone and not anywhere else even inside UK (those high profile guys can move rather freely only because they get paid huge and can afford to do so), how can poaching "engineers of rivals" be so easy for Honda? So Renault poached Merc's and Ferrari's PU engineers? and how many? Ferrari poached Renault's and Merc's engineers?, and how many? Merc poached Renault's and Ferrari's? how many?, for sure you know and can tell, right? Also annoying is lack of respect. Honda F1 is by, of and for Honda and Japan, not UK. Just like Renault F1 is by, of and for Renault and French, Ferrari is by, of and for Ferrari and Italy. Merc is different case, being effectively pure British. So please respect Honda and Japan and just let us do.

They took lots and lots of fast track in the first place, that's why their Energy Store was McLaren, some PU components like inlet/intake was McLaren, they counted on McLaren for various methodologies on F1, they were relying on McLaren and many European suppliers for key components, they hired Gilles Simon from the very start, they rely too much on outside vendors both in Japan and Europe and McLaren to the extent that they must increase in-house capacity urgently, and so on. It's just that you don't know these. What more can they do? Do more than that and it will not be "Honda F1". Is it really too hard for you to imagine that Honda too has very basic corporate and national pride in F1, has cause and reason for themselves in doing F1, just like Ferrari has and Renault has? Fact of the matter is, Honda, having so many non-Japanese staff already, sought as much fast-track as possible already and setting up factories in UK as well to hire engineers there, is significantly less domestic/national and inter-corporate than Ferrari (Italy/Ferrari), Renault (France/Renault) and Merc (effectively Great Britain / Brixworth).

And Honda do have 100 percent commitment, so don't bother. It's just that it's not the way you want, or they had already been doing the kind of things you want them to do, or much much more than that, for long time or since the very beginning, but you just didn't know it.
They will struggle of course because aforementioned lack of time and being in a position to play catch up, but I'd rather want them keep failing than seeking help in rivals engineers, or, say, buying out Cosworth or building huge R&D in UK to hire loads of Brixworth staff or Britons and success. Borrowed success = worthless. Struggle, strive and failure on their own = priceless. Again, as wrote above, Honda is significantly less domestic/national and inter-company than Ferrari and Renault (and Brixworth as UK) already, so the rest, just let them do.

Without ERS efficiency they will struggle in races a phenomenon Mclaren suffered in races in the last three years.

They did not have deployment issue in 2016 (what they always suffered was lack of ICE power). In 2017 they suffered in deployment shortage initially due to wider faster car and immature harvesting control but it's got improved significantly since Monza if not totally on par let alone sperior than others.

Toro Rosso have given Honda full freedom in terms of installation, space and cooling yet if they have reliability issues in the very first race it is a big hit. Remember in these power units once MGU-H fails the turbo also fails. This is going to be a really challenging season for Toro Rosso and i hope Honda manage to turn this around but i waited for three years in blind hope it never happened. Hopefully Toro Rosso are more lucky.

One thing is certain Red Bull main team aren't going to be anywhere near Honda in their current state.

Of course this is nothing but massive blow to whole Honda, as none other than Tanabe told to Japanese media. They have suffered from this MGU-H issue throughout the whole 2017 season and gradually getting on top of it towards the end of the season, and focused on the reliability extensively esp MGU-H during winter for this year, only to fail as early as on lap 14 altho cause may well be different.

Irrespective of the MGU-H issue, RBR Honda was never going to happen in the first place, at least in near future. You cannot simply tell anything about how Honda will do 2019 onward by this coming May or even summer, no one will make such gamble, almost suicidal. Red Bull giving Toro Rosso to Honda is about having more options in mid-long term for themselves and increasing political power in F1 (bonus being that they dont need to pay for PU for STR and can give the STR technical team whole new engineering environment of being manufacturer's works).

[dren]

Not being in F1 continuously, like some of the other makes have, is a huge detriment. F1 changes so much year to year. Honda talked about their initial struggles with this at the start of their previous stint in F1.

[Talisman]

They are a huge company with massive resources but they are using f1 as a test bed

Can you elaborate and explain what "using f1 as a test bed" exactly and specifically is?

Honda is doing F1 to do and win F1 by themselves, to let none other than Honda engineers do F1. Completely same as any other makers. Ferrari is doing F1 in order to do F1 by Ferrari and let Ferrari engineers do F1. Not only that, doing F1 has huge implication and incentive for them in attracting talents from all over Italy etc and maintaining and polishing its brand. So they have to do F1 by themselves and in Italy. Renault is the same, Honda is the same. Or is that surprise to you? Mercedes is exception because they are effectively British.

And Honda do have 100 percent commitment, so don't bother. It's just that it's not the way you want, or they had already been doing the kind of things you want them to do, or much much more than that, for long time or since the very beginning, but you just didn't know it.

Irrespective of the MGU-H issue, RBR Honda was never going to happen in the first place, at least in near future. You cannot simply tell anything about how Honda will do 2019 onward by this coming May or even summer, no one will make such gamble, almost suicidal. Red Bull giving Toro Rosso to Honda is about having more options in mid-long term for themselves and increasing political power in F1 (bonus being that they dont need to pay for PU for STR and can give the STR technical team whole new engineering environment of being manufacturer's works).

While a lot of your post makes sense I disagree with the above.

I don't believe Honda is in F1 specifically to win it. Honda is not motorsport-naive, they know that the ingredients for success require huge investment over time used wisely with a little luck. Those ingredients worked for Honda back in the 80s and it is clear to everyone that those are the ingredients Ferrari used in the late 90s/00s and Mercedes since 2010/1. They work for Honda in MotoGP now.

The problem is that Honda have clearly chosen NOT to invest heavily in F1, by their own admission (and some seem quite proud of that fact) they have around half the staff of Mercedes. I am not sure what their on-track objectives are but they are not intending to make sure they win which would require significantly more money. One then has to ask what their real objectives are. Is it commercial? Given that F1 and Honda's most important markets appear beautifully mutually exclusive one has to doubt that. Is it for training? To facilitate research? One does wonder.

Also Honda being 100% committed does not tally with the reports that they seriously considered simply leaving the sport when McLaren dropped them with the board having to be convinced that supplying STR and saving the money they had to pay to McLaren was worthwhile.

BTW I completely disagree with your last paragraph.

What would be in it for Honda to switch to STR from McLaren if not to have a chance at supplying RBR soon? Why go through the intense humiliation of being dropped acrimoniously despite it meaning McLaren losing substantial financial income as well as a works engine? Noone has ever considered STR to be in the same league as McLaren let alone a top team. There had to be an end objective for Honda above supplying STR, the logical one would be supplying RBR.

What is in it for RB to allow STR to take on Honda engines if not to assess them? I can only think of three reasons why they facilitated the deal, one which they could have blocked and sunk completely at any stage. The first is to destabilise and weaken McLaren in the long term. The second is to save the engine costs they used to pay to Renault (which is a relatively small saving) and the third is to assess both Honda's PU and Honda itself with a view to switching in the future.

Also you ignore that RBR may have no choice but to take Honda engines in 2019 however inferior they may be through 2018 as Renault is clearly not keen at all to continue the relationship and Mercedes/Ferrari are not interested in taking them on either.

IMO RBR took on Honda as an insurance and I consider it likely that they switch, a decision that would be made on political as well as sporting grounds. The frustration Milton Keynes feels regarding Renault is not too far off the frustration Woking felt about Honda a year ago, despite decades of continuous F1 participation and a supposed boost in investment over the last couple of years the Renault remains the same gap behind Mercedes they were three to four years ago. From their perspective switching to Honda could look like a worthwhile gamble.

[rogazilla]

...

IMO RBR took on Honda as an insurance and I consider it likely that they switch, a decision that would be made on political as well as sporting grounds. The frustration Milton Keynes feels regarding Renault is not too far off the frustration Woking felt about Honda a year ago, despite decades of continuous F1 participation and a supposed boost in investment over the last couple of years the Renault remains the same gap behind Mercedes they were three to four years ago. From their perspective switching to Honda could look like a worthwhile gamble.

I don't believe the budget comparison as a company shows their commitment. If I were to start a business venture or starting out in a new direction, throwing money is not the proper approach. The way I see it, Honda has to start on facilities, bring talent together and build it from the ground up. It takes time, just because you budgeted an extra 60-70 millions, does not mean the dyno shows up at your door right away. You budget for the space, train the people who knows how to use it, then you spend the money to bring the equipment over. When you have no understanding of the engine formula, you can immediately hire 100 engineers or 1000 engineers, the return from having 1000 engineers does not equal 10 times.

As for RBR wanting to have an options? sure. Will they pick Honda? that depends. Honda is with TR over MCL because they don't have a choice but is the goal always on RBR? Not necessary. Maybe Honda will be happy to acquire TR and call it a day! These are all possible solutions.

[etusch]

Well said @muramasa.
And below for signboard :
Borrowed success = worthless. Struggle, strive and failure on their own = priceless

[Talisman]

I believe the budget shows their commitment to winning, not their commitment to the sport. Honda's board's response to the problems in 2015/6/7 was not that of a company that wants to win and will spend what it takes to win, rather that of a company that has decided to spend X on F1 and stick to that budget come what may. In this sense their current approach is very much like that of Renault. Regarding their commitment to the sport they came close to leaving instead of switching to STR. That says it all for me.

RBR only have two options, possibly three. One is to switch to Honda with all the risks that entails. Two is to stick with Renault which may not be their choice to make as the French may simply be unwilling to continue. The third is to shut down and leave F1 and rumours have been swirling that DM is bored with the sport and has considered just that. Without supplying STR option one would have been a hell of a lot riskier.

[etusch]

Is Mercedes investment same from the beginning of buying brawn or gradually became this size?
Generally teams spend more when they are winning

[loner]

its easier to think about it this way
first of Honda returned to F1 because it need to transfer the technology to its road cars since the whole world going
to step away from petroleum or at least hybrid is the only way forward .. petroleum is the new coal.
Honda after dealing with Mclaren realized they can't win with them because regardless the Mclaren hype RBR have the best chassis of all the teams.
Daimler pouring massive money in their F1 project no one can even them on this side, they have one of the richest revenue in the cars industry any way
taking RBR is a very smart way to go head to head with Mercedes.
you just need to read what Marko said to understand what will happens

A VISIT TO HONDA CONVINCED VERSTAPPEN TO SIGN
And that we have an alternative option with regards to our engine. We flew to Honda’s HQ in Sakura where they have an incredible factory and all this convinced him
Whatever Verstappen saw was enough to convince him to ink a deal is said to be worth around $20-million per year over the course of the next three years, this could become a lot more if performance-related bonuses kick in.

[Talisman]

Is Mercedes investment same from the beginning of buying brawn or gradually became this size?
Generally teams spend more when they are winning

They bought Brawn on the basis that the team would not cost a penny to run once sponsorship and prize money had been taken into account. Therefore their total F1 budget didn't increase after buying Brawn compared to previously where they developed and supplied a PU for McLaren and gave them cash just like Honda did with Woking. A large amount of the budget, far more than in Honda/Brawn days went on drivers, or rather Michael Schumacher, meaning that the car was actually developed on a moderate budget hence the poor initial results.

In around 2011/2 the Daimler board was convinced (by whom I don't know) to substantially increase their F1 investment in order to improve performance. Much of the increased budget was spent on developing the new hybrid from as soon as the regulations allowed. The rest is history as they say.

[Thunder18]

Do we know how many people work in each engine dept. Honda, Renault, Ferrari, Mercedes??

[Talisman]

Do we know how many people work in each engine dept. Honda, Renault, Ferrari, Mercedes??

I think the ballpark estimates are that Honda have just over half that of Mercedes, Renault is close to Honda, Ferrari is close to Mercedes. I think the budgets are also supposed to be similar in relative terms.

Problem is of course that much depends on other factors, for example how much work is outsourced to suppliers, whether the manpower in one place includes support staff like HR, IT etc or not.

[rogazilla]

Honda relied on McLaren on many techs as well and only this year they start on the MGU-H and Battery that I can think of. Therefore the budget increases and bring in additional staff. I take that as part of budget planning not really a commitment issue.

For me the commitment will come into question is in situation where you know developing your own MGU-H part will take you to the next level but you are restraint by the budget and not develop it anyway where you can really afford to increase the budget.

[Talisman]

I think we mean different things by commitment.

By commitment to the sport I mean the degree of attachment they have. I believe Honda is the least committed of the four makers and it wouldn't take a significant setback for them to call it a day and leave.

By commitment to winning I mean their willingness to give the F1 PU team resources that would ensure not only that they close the gap with Mercedes but beat them. In F1 I believe only Ferrari has demonstrated that commitment. Renault and Honda are not really trying.