Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

[saviour stivala]

There is no sensor between the MGUK and the crankshaft.

A sensor measures the power going to, or out of, the MGUK (Volts and Amps) in the electrical circuit. An efficiency factor 95% for the electrical power to the MGUK means that a more efficient motor will give a few more hp (if it is 98% then the MGUK will deliver approximately 5hp more than the nominal amount).

The MGUK is mechanically fixed to the crankshaft, so no need to measure power there.

I did not say there is a sensor between "K" and crankshaft, i said there is a sensor on the "k" that measure flow out of MGU-K either out to crankshaft or in to ERS components. and this measuring sensor will register if the limitted flow imposed by the regulations are not being broken.

The sensor (probably bi-directional current sensor) will be placed between ES and MGU-K not between MGU-K and MGU-H as you won't be able to distinguish the flow from ES to MGU-K and vice versa.

According to the rules a flow measuring sensor must be on the ES and another on the "K".

[saviour stivala]

The diagram even says unlimited on it.....

Yes the diagram says unlimitted up to "K" but limitted from "K" OUT or IN.

[godlameroso]

The fuel injection rule (must be direct injection) leaves no leeway for interpretation. The fuel injection must take place in the space above the piston. I know of no pre-combustion system were fuel and or spark doesn’t take place inside it/were combustion is not started inside it. A pre-combustion chamber of 10 cc or 1 cc is still a pre-combustion chamber. and Godlameroso, how can i think that there is a pre-combustion chamber being used in F1?

How else would the be achieving such combustion efficiency? Again I don't know what combustion tricks they're using. It could be just as you say, a conventional direct injector over the piston crown with a spark plug next to it. Honda for a fact placed their injector on the exhaust side of the head, Mercedes perhaps as well.

What kind of combustion process do you think Ferrari is using? Do you think just bumping up the compression ratio is enough?

I cannot for the life of me think that anybody outside of a “very very selective few” in each of the 4 teams big engine departments will ever know the details of their respective combustion process. Godlameroso, do you remember the past 1.5l turbo era?. the 2 most important thing that is making the difference between than and now are (1) fuel developments, and (2) "TOOLS" in the form of in-cylinder sensors that can control with some reliability abusing all combustion parameters to a very fine and delegate line between a big bang and success.

Dude, you've been reading my posts, telling me fuel developments, and tools to see the process at fine time scales is critical, isn't news to me. Neither is the secretive nature of it all, I was hoping for some new revelation on your part. It's your fault for acting all knowing and smug, I can't help but poke those who have knowledge in case I can soak up some crumbs.

[saviour stivala]

With a mandated flow measuring sensor on the “K” that measures flow (IN) from the “K” to ERS components, and flow (OUT) from the “K” to the crankshaft. And the FIA official flow chart (link I posted) clearly marking flow from “K” IN and OUT as being LIMITTED, there is no way that these 2 flows can be more than that stipulated by the rules, it is useless suggesting flow routes and saying unlimited this and unlimited that because whatever is thrown at the “K” cannot pass IN or OUT OF the “K” any bigger than that permitted.

The official flow chart does not show that:
http://static.sportskeeda.com/wp-conten ... 24x606.jpg
(it is the 2014 chart without the mention of the sensors. Those are on the most recent official chart)

Energy transfer between K and H is stated to be unlimited. And between ES and H is also unlimited. If we were naïve individuals, based on this flow chart you could say "screw ES to K, I am just going to use ES to H to K which is unlimited". Again this is surely not happening, but it's not because of the presented flow chart.

Again what the sensor measure is not enough on its own as a limiting regulation. You can hang a sensor of how much time the driver waves to the public, but I'd still need a regulation to limit his waves to 5 times each race. The sensors you are putting forward surely measure up to ensure everybody is keeping to the regulations; that's not the point of debate here. The point is: the regulation that forbids K generated and stored energy to be unlimited used through the H unit is not on the flow chart and not in the technical regulations. Others have debated this is effectively a possibility; I myself think "yeah, this is in a technical directive probably even before 2014".

So for the record: I am not debating you that they are can bipass the 4MJ limit. I fully agree they cannot. I am debating you that it is not because of the chart.

the ES flow in/out measuring sensor and the MGU-K out to crankshaft and in to ERS components measuring sensors have been mandated from before the new hybrid formula ran on track.

[Chene_Mostert]

The diagram even says unlimited on it.....

Yes the diagram says unlimitted up to "K" but limitted from "K" OUT or IN.

No its limited between ES & K, unlimited between ES & H; H & K.

It's simple really just read it as it is, witout putting your spin on it.

[saviour stivala]

The diagram even says unlimited on it.....

Yes the diagram says unlimitted up to "K" but limitted from "K" OUT or IN.

No its limited between ES & K, unlimited between ES & H; H & K.

It's simple really just read it as it is, witout putting your spin on it.

Exactly as you said, but you left out that from "K" to crankshaft it is limitted.

[saviour stivala]

How else would the be achieving such combustion efficiency? Again I don't know what combustion tricks they're using. It could be just as you say, a conventional direct injector over the piston crown with a spark plug next to it. Honda for a fact placed their injector on the exhaust side of the head, Mercedes perhaps as well.

What kind of combustion process do you think Ferrari is using? Do you think just bumping up the compression ratio is enough?

I cannot for the life of me think that anybody outside of a “very very selective few” in each of the 4 teams big engine departments will ever know the details of their respective combustion process. Godlameroso, do you remember the past 1.5l turbo era?. the 2 most important thing that is making the difference between than and now are (1) fuel developments, and (2) "TOOLS" in the form of in-cylinder sensors that can control with some reliability abusing all combustion parameters to a very fine and delegate line between a big bang and success.

Dude, you've been reading my posts, telling me fuel developments, and tools to see the process at fine time scales is critical, isn't news to me. Neither is the secretive nature of it all, I was hoping for some new revelation on your part. It's your fault for acting all knowing and smug, I can't help but poke those who have knowledge in case I can soak up some crumbs.

You asked a question and i answered, in no way was anthing intended to be "news to you" such a knowledgable person.

[cheeRS]

The diagram even says unlimited on it.....

Yes the diagram says unlimitted up to "K" but limitted from "K" OUT or IN.

Is this what you are referring to?
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If so, the "Limited" from the MGU_K to the Rear Wheels and vice versa is ONLY a POWER limitation, which is why you see the "+/- 120KW" qualifier. 120kW is a power measurement, not a flow measurement. All it means is that the MGU_K can operate at a max of 120kW(160HP), whether it is sending the power to the wheels or the ES or the MGU_H. "Flow" is a quantity of energy, measured in megajoules in this case. 1kW is a kilojoule per second. The difference here is power and flow. The MGU_K has a limited amount of flow from the ES only, as the diagram shows. However, whether it gets the flow from the ES or the MGU_H or from the ICE (when generating), it can only operate at 120kilojoules per second.

Again, the only limits are flow from the ES to the K and vice versa, and the POWER from the MGU_K. Flow from the ES to MGU_H and vice versa is unlimited. Flow from the MGU_H to the MGU_K is vice versa is unlimited. The diagram is clearly labelled. How exactly are you interpreting this as FLOW being limited from the MGU_K to the wheels/ICE? Flow doesn't get sent from the MGU_K to the wheels/ICE at all, in fact. POWER gets generated and torque gets applied.

[Mr.G]

I did not say there is a sensor between "K" and crankshaft, i said there is a sensor on the "k" that measure flow out of MGU-K either out to crankshaft or in to ERS components. and this measuring sensor will register if the limitted flow imposed by the regulations are not being broken.

The sensor (probably bi-directional current sensor) will be placed between ES and MGU-K not between MGU-K and MGU-H as you won't be able to distinguish the flow from ES to MGU-K and vice versa.

According to the rules a flow measuring sensor must be on the ES and another on the "K".

[bill shoe]

Exactly as you said, but you left out that from "K" to crankshaft it is limitted.

(Awkwardly tiptoes into argument...) Is mechanical power from K to crankshaft directly measured via a torque & speed (mechanical power) sensor, or is it indirectly limited by the electric flow from ES to K? I thought the power of K to crank was calculated by taking electric power from ES to K, multiplying by 0.95 (approx efficiency of K), and kind of assuming that's accurate.

The flow diagram above does not show an electric power sensor on the H to K, so if that's accurate then total mechanical power output from K to crank is not limited in any practical sense, instead only the ES to K to crank portion is limited.

[Mr.G]

Besides all the ongoing discussion, I've been thninking where the ERS can be improved for more power/efficiency...

[godlameroso]

I cannot for the life of me think that anybody outside of a “very very selective few” in each of the 4 teams big engine departments will ever know the details of their respective combustion process. Godlameroso, do you remember the past 1.5l turbo era?. the 2 most important thing that is making the difference between than and now are (1) fuel developments, and (2) "TOOLS" in the form of in-cylinder sensors that can control with some reliability abusing all combustion parameters to a very fine and delegate line between a big bang and success.

Dude, you've been reading my posts, telling me fuel developments, and tools to see the process at fine time scales is critical, isn't news to me. Neither is the secretive nature of it all, I was hoping for some new revelation on your part. It's your fault for acting all knowing and smug, I can't help but poke those who have knowledge in case I can soak up some crumbs.

You asked a question and i answered, in no way was anthing intended to be "news to you" such a knowledgable person.

The fact I'm pressing you means I don't know...

[turbof1]

Common guys, let's keep away from making this personal. Whatever animosity there was, bygones have to be bygones. Respect eachother.

[dans79]

The diagram even says unlimited on it.....

Yes the diagram says unlimitted up to "K" but limitted from "K" OUT or IN.

sigh,

• the total amount of power that can go between the MGU-K and ES is limited.
• The total amount of power than goes form the MGU-K to the wheels is not limited, the rate of deployment is limited.
• the total amount of power that can go between the MGU-H and ES is unlimited.
• the total amount of power that can go between the MGU-H and MGU-K is unlimited.

An amount and a flow rate are two completely different things.

[CriXus]

Guys, why are you keep trying? This guy is a troll.