Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

[turbof1]

I'm going to repeat this. One. Last. Time. No speculative talk about cheating in this thread!

And that goes both ways: no claims of cheating and no "let's rub it in how ferrari not got convicted for cheating" posts. Few people actually claim Ferrari is cheating, and that will remain so unless they get officially convicted for it. Discussion about legality should always center around questions HOW ferrari made a part legal, not IF Ferrari made it legal. And again on the flip side, these HOW-legality questions should not be confused for IF-legality questions! We are trying to generate knowledge here, not discussion about settling scores, unfounded accusations, etc.

Next time there will be warnings and bans involved. Consider this the final friendly & informal warning.

[Tommy Cookers]

Yes the FERRARI F1-2000 3L V10 used alternating throttles openings between banks on fast accelaration to minimize the Gyroscopic effect on the car. to this effect they were also constantly experimenting with verious firing orders.

these factors would make no difference to the gyroscopic effects
because they do not change the angular momentum of the engines rotating parts or the motion of their axes of rotation.

[bill shoe]

But the big question-- How to harvest car's kinetic energy during braking with an electric device on your turbo-compressor?

I feel like this would be somewhat straight forward.

In theory, yes. In practice I'm skeptical that the big turbines on these engines could keep enough back pressure to make much energy recovery from air-pumping during braking. The turbine is fundamentally sized for a 600 hp hot exhaust flow, not the air-pumping during braking. So the turbine is a long ways from the positive displacement pump that we'd like for energy recovery during braking. The turbine is not allowed variable geometry, right? You could greatly slow the turbo during braking so you build some back pressure, but at really low turbine speeds the H is also spinning really slow and can't generate much power.

[munudeges]

This is factually wrong. 4MJ does indeed provide 33.33 seconds of 120kw on the driveshaft, but it's not limited to 4MJ. For instance, energy harvested by the mgu-h can immediately be deployed through the mgu-k on driveshaft as well. Whoever wrote that on Mercedes' website definitely was only schooled in pr.

This should be pretty well known by now, no? The MGU-H is a great big hole you can drive a coach and horses through.

[saviour stivala]

Yes the FERRARI F1-2000 3L V10 used alternating throttles openings between banks on fast accelaration to minimize the Gyroscopic effect on the car. to this effect they were also constantly experimenting with verious firing orders.

these factors would make no difference to the gyroscopic effects
because they do not change the angular momentum of the engines rotating parts or the motion of their axes of rotation.

Paolo Martinelli FERRARI tipo 049 NA 3L V10 architect talking to Ian Bamsey of race engine technology at Silverstone April 2000. “we alternate both throttle butterfly openings percentages between banks as well as the length of the variable length intake trumpets independently of throttle pedal position to tame torque output for a better drivability as well as to minimize the engine gyroscopic effect on the car”.

[saviour stivala]

The MGU-K is the only one of the two ERS components that is mandated with an in and out of it measuring sensor because it is the only one of the two ERS components whose in and out of it are restricted.
The MGU-H will only harvest when the cylinders air demands are met.

[NL_Fer]

Would a rule prevent to operate the ice with a few disabled cilinders under breaking? That way they could increase the amount of exhaust gas to blow the turbine.

[roon]

They might have a Jake brake installed. Or something that provides the equivalent effect, although it may contravene the definition of a four-stroke engine. Essentially you need to vent the cylinder at TDC before the expansion stroke in order to prevent energy being lost to accelerating the crankshaft, which reduces engine braking and exhaust velocity. All this achieved while the throttle is open, naturally (although these engines likely do not have throttles as we know them). All this achieved without anything resembling VVT.

The compressor could also be utilized as a turbine during braking. The engine would pull partial vacuum on the HP side of the compressor, with atmospheric pressure at the compressor inlet.

Regarding engine braking within this formula, generally: if no throttle, then no engine braking (beyond small frictional and pumping losses) unless exhaust backpressure can be increased or the cylinders can be evacuated near top-dead-center.

Sidenote: I bet you clever wastegate integration could provide some effects equivalent to variable turbine geometry.

viewtopic.php?p=766774#p766774

[roon]

The oil tank is quite tall/high (relative to the camshaft cover).

[ME4ME]

Ok I haven't read all the comments here, but what is the consensus? -is this "gain" that Ferrari made applicable to both qualifying ánd the race?

Because you'd say that by now it should be pretty standard practice for teams to use MGU-H motoring and wastegate bypass in qualifying. It's nothing new.

If Ferrari indeed have gained a hefty amount of performance in addition to this mode, which already optimizes power output, than we're likely not looking at energy management gains or battery trickery, but ICE gains and increased power at the crankshaft.

Actually, Arrivebene specifically thanked Shell at the Canadian Grand Prix. Could be that a breakthrough was made on the petroleum side..

[apexcontrol]

Ok I haven't read all the comments here, but what is the consensus? -is this "gain" that Ferrari made applicable to both qualifying ánd the race?

Because you'd say that by now it should be pretty standard practice for teams to use MGU-H motoring and wastegate bypass in qualifying. It's nothing new.

If Ferrari indeed have gained a hefty amount of performance in addition to this mode, which already optimizes power output, than we're likely not looking at energy management gains or battery trickery, but ICE gains and increased power at the crankshaft.

Actually, Arrivebene specifically thanked Shell at the Canadian Grand Prix. Could be that a breakthrough was made on the petroleum side..

Yeah i do think there having huge benefits with shell.but how much is the gain.

[saviour stivala]

From page 118 18 July 11:53 “word that was doing the rounds in Silverstone paddock by people in the know was that FERRARI progress with their power unit was due to combustion developments progress made possible by Shell updated fuel development (progress in octane rating numbers) of which are not restricted by the rules”. This development had to be supported by (1) reliability, because the more power produced the bigger the stress. (2) better fuel consumption, because the more power produced the more fuel used. (3) better harvesting capability by the H when it is not involved in the extra power being produced on the lap, because involving both the H and the K in producing the extra power will otherwise leave the ES discharged at the next lap, as K harvesting under braking on the power deployment lap will hardly harvest the 50% of ES charge allowed.

[OO7]

I've been considering the Honda extra harvest mode and the theory proposed by Craigy? about using the compressor and or turbine as a flywheel.

Rather that using the pressure charging system as the flywheel, why not simply have an integrated flywheel on a separate spool (like a multi-stage jet engine), that can be clutched to the pressure charging system and or the MGU-H. Under part throttle conditions in GENSET mode, the MGU-K (via crankshaft power) could be used to spin-up the flywheel and exceed the 4Mj ES limit, as it is a separate mechanical ES (not 'cell' based) and thus not subject to those energy or packaging limitations.

[subcritical71]

I've been considering the Honda extra harvest mode and the theory proposed by Craigy? about using the compressor and or turbine as a flywheel.

Rather that using the pressure charging system as the flywheel, why not simply have an integrated flywheel on a separate spool (like a multi-stage jet engine), that can be clutched to the pressure charging system and or the MGU-H. Under part throttle conditions in GENSET mode, the MGU-K (via crankshaft power) could be used to spin-up the flywheel and exceed the 4Mj ES limit, as it is a separate mechanical ES (not 'cell' based) and thus not subject to those energy or packaging limitations.

Unfortunately it isn’t allowed by the rules.

5.2 Other means of propulsion and energy recovery :
5.2.1 The use of any device, other than the engine described in 5.1 above, and one MGU-K, to
propel the car, is not permitted.

[OO7]

I've been considering the Honda extra harvest mode and the theory proposed by Craigy? about using the compressor and or turbine as a flywheel.

Rather that using the pressure charging system as the flywheel, why not simply have an integrated flywheel on a separate spool (like a multi-stage jet engine), that can be clutched to the pressure charging system and or the MGU-H. Under part throttle conditions in GENSET mode, the MGU-K (via crankshaft power) could be used to spin-up the flywheel and exceed the 4Mj ES limit, as it is a separate mechanical ES (not 'cell' based) and thus not subject to those energy or packaging limitations.

Unfortunately it isn’t allowed by the rules.

5.2 Other means of propulsion and energy recovery :
5.2.1 The use of any device, other than the engine described in 5.1 above, and one MGU-K, to
propel the car, is not permitted.

It wouldn't be used to propel the car however if we take article 5.2.1 as written, then the MGU-H wouldn't be viable?
Also as far as I can tell, the MGU-H regs do not limit system installation to a single MGU-H unlike the MGU-K, so that could be a loop hole.